S3 E35. Legends, Championships, & Scandals: Inside the Crease, Lacrosse, & Life with Matt Palumb, A Compilation.

• Welcome to "Get the Lax Scoop" podcast, hosted by Big Dawg and Jaybird, featuring the biggest names in lacrosse.
• Special guest: Matt Palumb, legendary Syracuse goaltender, NCAA champion, and renowned lacrosse referee.
• Matt shares stories from his early days, including the origins of the first lacrosse camp for kids at Le Moyne College.
• Deep dive into Matt's playing career at Syracuse: three straight national championships, memorable games, and legendary teammates like the Gait brothers.
• Behind-the-scenes look at practices under Coach Roy Simmons Jr.—his unique coaching style, philosophy, and memorable pregame stories.
• Reflections on championship moments, including the 1988, 1989, and 1990 title runs, and the infamous "missing" 1990 trophy.
• Discussion of what makes a great team: dominance, discipline, grit, and the importance of buying in as a team.
• Transition to Matt's career as a top NCAA and PLL referee, including his approach to officiating, building relationships, and maintaining authenticity and passion for the game.
• Listener questions: favorite coaches, memorable moments, and the mystery of the 1990 trophy.
• Closing thoughts: gratitude for a life in lacrosse, the unique camaraderie of the sport, and a heartfelt sign-off from the hosts.

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Links to training videos:
Master The 5 Best Dodges From the Wing!
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Blazing Shots... on the Run!
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SuccessHotline with Dr. Rob Gilbert on Ironclad & Apple Podcasts

Brian Cain Daily Dominator on Apple Podcasts

Lacrosse Charities Mentioned in S2 E36:
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https://www.harlemlacrosse.org/

https://15forlife.org/

Transcript

0:00

It's time for Get the Lack Scoop, a podcast bringing you all the people and stuff you should know in the game of lacrosse. We take lack seriously, but ourselves, not so much. Join host Big Dog and Jaybird and the biggest names in the game brought to you by Jay McMahon lacrosse. That's JML skills, mindset, and lacks IQ training. Ron Doglish, the big dog, was a collegiate football and lacrosse player at Brown. He was also an assistant lacrosse coach and the executive director of the Sports Foundation. And Jay McMahon, the Jaybird, a three time All American midfielder at Brown. He was the captain of the U. S. Junior National Team and is the founder of JML. And Joining us in the studio, Steve Grisolfi, who's collegiate lacrosse career statistics equals one goal against Dartmouth brought to you by Jay McMahon lacrosse. That's JML skills, mindset, and lacks IQ training, helping the next generation of lacrosse players get to the next level well, lacrosse fans, welcome to another tremendous episode. I'm sure it's going to be a tremendous episode, Jay Epic of get the lack scoop based on. Our guest today. Absolutely. I think, you know, is there a guy who's been better known over more years, who's been around more big lacrosse moments than no way than our guests today? No. Um, and so I'm really excited. Jay, this is gonna be a great time, great conversation. Absolutely. You know, it could get, I, I sense with this guest it could get a little spicy. We could get a little sidetrack from time to time, perhaps Jay. Oh yeah. But we'll see. We'll see how it goes. Super spicy. Love. I'm loving it. Well, here we go with the intro. Our next guest was a standout goaltender, who as a senior in high school, earned all American Honors as he led Jamesville dewitt to a New York State Championship back in 1986. He went on to a record setting career in the cage for Syracuse. From his sophomore to senior years, he helped the Orange win three straight national championships as a sophomore at su. He was named the most outstanding player in the 1988 NCAA championship. He earned the honor on the strength of a 21 save performance against Cornell in the national title game that propelled the orange to its second national championship and first undefeated season in 31 years. He finished his career with 537 saves, which ranks seventh on the school's all time list. In addition, he holds the orange record for career winning percentage at 95.2%, going 40 and two as a starter. After his playing career, he became a lacrosse referee For 10 years, he worked his way up the ladder and for the past 20 years, he has now officiated umpteen NCA Final Four in national championship events at the Division one, and he's probably in the twenties to thirties actually at the division one, two, and three levels. He also worked the 2006 and 2023 FIL World Lacrosse Championships. He's currently the head referee of the PLLA position he has held since the league's inception in 2019 and has become one of the most recognized faces and personalities in the league. All along, he has maintained his day job in the Department of Athletics as director of donor relations at his alma mater. He is a true rarity in athletics. A star player who became a top-notch official. Please welcome the one, the only Matt Palem. Welcome Jay. I'm gonna have to have you give me the intro wherever I go. That's sounding. I was like, wow. That was, that was pretty good, Matt. Huh? That was pretty good. Oh man. Thank, it's fun doing research on these careers. I mean, it's, it's amazing. The only, the only Miss I'm, I'm now, in, at Le Moine College, so I, I did 12 years at SU and then I refereed fulltime for a few years.'cause I do hoops also. Oh, okay. Now I, I've been at Le Moine for about a year, so that's the only update. That's I gotcha. Other than that, you were spot on. Okay. Now that I see the background I gotcha now. Awesome. Yeah. Well, great, Jay, I, I alluded in my lead in Jay, which I thought was a tremendous lead in, if I might, oh, let's give you some credit now. But, but, but Maddy, it's unbelievable when you go through that from player to all the different levels you've officiated, just like all the big games you've been around, all the greatest players. Think about, think about what his eyes have seen. Oh my God, it's unbelievable the history of lacrosse. So we, we really look forward to diving into that. As you can see from our title, we're on to our next compilation. We'll kick it off with a really cool piece of the history of lacrosse as Matt P tells us about the origins of and his participation in the very first lacrosse camp for kids. And from there, we'll just let it flow. Enjoy. So anyways, um, so. Fast forward or, or back to your, your, your question about my lacrosse roots. Ironically, I'm sitting at Le Moine College, and Le Moine College was the site of the All American Lacrosse camp, which was one of the very first lacrosse camps of all these 80 gazillion lacrosse camps that used to be, that are now all in their graves because nobody wants to learn anything. Everybody just wants to play. Right. But my first experience, Walt Munsey, who was my, uh, probably my number one mentor in, in officiating, but he's a local guy who was a high school basketball coach. He refered the 90 title game that I played in. Okay. Wow. So it. Oh man, you know, and he ran the All American lacrosse camp. He got the idea, he was a basketball guy. Um, back in the late sixties is when this thing started, and basketball was ahead of the curve doing camp. So he said, ah, he was coaching at a hoop camp. He's like, boy, you know, why not a lacrosse camp? So he started the All American lacrosse camp at Le Moine College where I'm sitting. And the cool thing about that was, well, you know, first of all back then that you got dropped off on Sunday and picked up on Friday, right? Yeah, yeah, right. An actual full week. Right. And secondly, um, so the unique thing about All American Camp, and this is all gonna come together, sorry to babble, but the cool thing about the All American camp, like if you went to the Syracuse camp, you'd go to and, and, you know, see their staff and their players and whatever. If you went to the Brown camp, right, you were coached by the brown people, the army, so on and so forth. Because Walt was a, was a ref. The All American camp, the staff was the following. And, and this is, and I went to the camp for five or six years in a row, but here's your camp staff. Okay. And this probably 19 81, 82, 83, those type of years. Mm-hmm. Coach Moran from Cornell, coach Urich from Hobart, coach er, from Army. Oh my gosh. Um, later on, like Coach Scott Nelson at Nazareth, who's winning division three national titles. Right, right. Um, JB Clark coming up from Washington or wherever he was. Uh, and the bottom line is be because of that exposure. And I'm just scratching the servers every big shot. You know? I mean, you imagine Rickie Moran living in a dorm for a week, right? Yeah. Like every, he's got a team at camp, you know what I mean? That's what was going on. So Scotty Anderson at Harvard, he came, I mean, we had all kinds of guys. So anyways, that was my first real taste So Jay, I think over to you, we're gonna turn to the SU years, I think. Yeah, absolutely. We're gonna get people up to speed a little bit. To us, the, the OGs. Yeah. Uh, so we'll run it through here. So you played at SU, as we mentioned, from 87 to 90, and just to review during the three years plan, those were years, lean years for the orange J 87 to 90. Oh yeah. It was tough. Things were tough there. Up in Syracuse, 88 to 90 orange winds, three national championships suffered only one loss. First game of the 89 season at Hopkins, losing 14 to 13, they avenge that loss in the national championship that year. 13 to 12 in gen outside that one loss basically go undefeated for three years. And then, you know, Syracuse is always associated with the high flying offensive talent. And then, you know, I, I knew Pat McCabe, I played with him on the team US 119 team. Great guy. And one of the all time best of course. Absolutely. And four time All American, you know, three or four time on team USA, blah, blah, blah. But then you had, mark Stoffer was an All American Eric Holbrook, Mino. Uh, you were the MVP of the tournament in 88. You had a lot of talent on defense that you didn't really hear much about. Then on the offensive side of the, of the game, you know, you've got Gary and Paul Gate, you know, considered potentially the best guys who ever played the game. John Zabar, I mean, a list of mile long of these other all Americans. So the, and so we wanna hear about some of these game memories, but first, what was practice like? I mean, honestly, that must have been crazy and, and to hear a little bit about Coach Simmons and how he'd run a practice, I'd be interested in that. So we'll let you run just on what practice is like. Sure, yeah, no, my, my, my opening line is, my running joke is, um, I'm the reason that the gates are such good shooters.'cause practice was such a bitch, you know? Right, right, right. I made them great. Actually, just the contrary. There used to be days where you don't touch a ball, bang, bang, bang, bang, you know, and if they got doubled, they'd flip it down to merit check and good luck with him on the doorstep. Right. Oh my gosh. Right, right. You know, talk about a confidence boost as a goalie every day. Jesus, thanks. Out the wazoo. Right. I got, I got my favorite story about that in the 89 game that we lost. This is Tommy Meek's freshman year. So this is Meek's first game ever. Gotcha. So he shows us. So I'm a, yeah, I'm a junior. He's a freshman. So he shows up at Qs and, and you had all Americans in front of him, didn't you? Yeah. Did he? Oh yeah. In front of Burns or somebody really good. Uh, Jimmy Egan, actually. Jimmy ended up Jimmy Egan. Yeah. Yeah. He was a big dude. And that was Marek Burns. Andi. So it was pretty good crew. Yeah. Crazy. But Marek in Protect in particular, and keep in mind, we haven't seen all this stuff like we've seen it today, right? Like these guys are doing, it was Zoom stuff, and you're like, what is that Canadian? What? Yeah. So again, he was unbelievable. Like the best inside finisher. I've ever seen, you know, I might stop him once every 20 times inside, so whatever. So anyways, and then the whole preseason, I'm like, little bit of a confidence Rattler, you know, you're like, yeah, God. So anyways, now, so now fast forward to the game we lose and uh, mayor Cha, he actually, the first game, EKK didn't start until later in the year, but like Simmy would slide him in there like two minutes into the game, you know? Ah, okay. I kinda remember that Jimmy. A little controversial, right? See what this guy looks like. So anyways, meek goes into the game. Never forget this. I have all the respect in the world for Quint. I think he's a great goalie. I always have. We played against each other in high school, in the Empire State Games and all that stuff, right? I think he's a tremendous goalie. Um, so anyways, one of the greatest performances ever. Him winning the title as a freshman, I mean, right? That was amazing. Yeah. So anyways, back to Quint. Ek, if you can picture this is, is on the side of the goal there. Quint like makes a savor. There's a loose ball and, and Meek's on the side of the goal. His, his feet are below goal line extended and the ball is like in the crease, but, but looses and Meek scoops it up again. He's behind the goal and quint's on the pipe and, and Meek's got a guy put, you know, on his back or whatever. Meek reaches back, throws about six fakes on Quint beyond Goal, unextended and sticks it. And I'll never forget, I go, I go, all right. Quick can. Quin can't do shit with him either. It's not just me. It's not just me. Was like Jesus. Right. What was that? He'd never seen him before, right? This is his first, right? Oh, right. What was that? What was that? Well, I remember Paul Gate winding up. I mean, he is like 15 or 20 hours out in that 89 championship. Huge windup, quint's. Standing there. Standing there. There's no one between him and Paul Gate to screen him at all. And all you see is Quint lean a little bit this way to the left, the littlest thing. And Paul Gate shoots it, stick side high, right in the corner. And Quint just does this. He just shrugs his shoulders, waves his hand. He's like, whatever. He turn turns and rag. Like he just unbelievable. And he did that to our goalie much multiple times. And so did Gary. Yeah. And I was like always trying to get an edge, so I'm like, snake was our nickname of Steve a, our goalie. I'm like, what are they doing? You're, you're lying on the ground and they're shooting high. He's like, they're faking me, man. Head shoulders. Doesn't matter. 20 yards out. I mean, it's, their sticks are bent. It's horrible. What's going on. Right, right. Their sticks are, are, are curved. I mean, they were out of this world. And one thing, John Desco, when he was running through his, when he retired, he was running through all these years and then he got to the point of the gates like every era, like there was this, there was that. And he's like, it just wasn't fair. And I'm like, thank you. Some validation. Exactly. That's what I felt like Exactly. I'm like, what is going on here? They were ridiculous. Meek too. It was just crazy. Yeah. The and the gates even more so than meek, the, the, the six, if they grew up here, they would've been like division one defensive backs or something. I mean, yeah. They were serious athletes fastest, didn't like, they're, they're like a lot of these PLL kids are now, right. I mean, we didn't have those kind of dudes running around with, they were the biggest, strongest, fastest, best skills. It was ridiculous. Well, and, and, and again, when I look back and, and, and you talk about that career that I've had, how lucky am I to show, oh, these dudes are coming here. Right. And nobody ever heard of, they showed up in January, they were over in the corners, like, what's this all about? You know, Bernie, Columbia, weird jeans, you know, like Yeah. They looked weird at first. You, they don't go right. You gotta go, right. Yeah. Right. They did not, it's not like they came and were like, oh shit, the gates are here. We're like, right. We got dudes. We don't. Right, right, right. We don't need them. Right. Fred cosplay here, you know? Right. Exactly. We got so Bernie, we, you know, you know, I mean, Hey, Matt, so that, that was, Hey Matt, can you, can you go back though to this. This piece that Jay was asking about the practice, I'm just interested it from like you were referring to it from a mental aspect. Right? On the one hand, they've gotta be pushing you every day. I mean, there's no way you're not gonna get better. Well, just hilarious. He said like some days I never talked ball. I'm the goal. Yeah. Some days I did not make it safe. I know that happened a couple times and I'd be late. How did you, how did you manage that sense of both, you know, you were, you know what I would do once in a while? Like I'd go with the seconds and go like, play against her. Yeah, yeah. Right From the other team. Get them on my team once in a while just to boost my confidence more the shooters. Yeah. Yeah. Right. No,'cause it was unbelievable and, and of course Coach Simmons, to your point, you know. We played five on four, broken drill for it seems like hours, you know, we'd five on four fast breaks. Yeah. Um, you know, just everything was always moving for Right. 90 minutes, you know, people out there two and two and a half hours, 90 minutes and you never, there was no like, stand there. He was not big on like one-on-ones. Like, do your one-on-ones in the context of what we're doing. You know what I mean? So there was not mm-hmm. He didn't want. Mm-hmm. People stand, and again, back then we don't have the facilities. So you're standing out there, it's fucking 32 degrees out and you know, like keep'em moving. He was always, let's keep moving this game. Yeah. All the good he goes, all the good teams I see move. He goes, let's keep moving. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. You know, he's very big, you know, X's and o's were hugs and kisses to him and, and uh, yeah. Yeah. But he knew what an athlete looked like and he knew, you know, I'll never forget one of my favorite Roy stories, big Roy stories, is, uh, Hopkins in the Dome in 87, And I'm a freshman. This is, watch that game. That was a sick game. Brian Wood. This was great. Played amazing you guys, I think was, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, uh, I'm a freshman. Greg Burns, uh, I'm in a red shirt. And, uh, Greg Burns is standing next to me. He's gonna get some run. He's my best friend from jd. We, we've grown up since we were three years old, and now we're standing next to each other. 20,000 people in the dome. Saturday night we're playing Hopkins. Like we're looking at each other. We can't even believe we're there. We're like, yeah, that's amazing. So cool. That's, yeah, like I got a poster of'em in my room, right? So we have a very, so now the gates are freshmen too, and we have a very senior laden midfield, uh, Todd Curry, right? Kavanaugh. We, we had dudes right. Pat Donahue, uh, you know, all kinds of guys like that. So I will never forget it. Sometime in the second quarter. Roy Simmons would never be involved with. Like coach, like actual person, like no, you're going in, you come out. Desco would handle that. Kevin Donahue would handle that. Huh? Roy was kind of, Roy was just running the orchestra and uh, the ball went out about, he was hanging out near the box. Coach was, and Gary Gate was, was right behind him wearing number 38. And the ball went out of bounds. Uh, Hopkins turned it over, we're gonna pick it up and, and we're in their, just in their offensive end right near the box. And, uh, uh, Todd Curry's about to step, you know, okay, mids, not that he's about to step on and scoop ball. First Team American semi grabs his arm. Oh no. Just grab Gary's jersey and, oh. And I'm like, all see, picks it up. And of course, the kind guard, you know, he's 38. Nobody ever seen or heard of him in their life. Right. Ref blows the whistle. This guy's gone and now he gets in on Stuart Jones and he throws about nine fakes at him. Like Stuart Jones is like on his back. By the time Gary's done with him, dumps it in circles back and he's right back next to me. Like in like the, you know, he never said anything or did right like this. I go and we're all like, what the fuck? That was pretty good. What was that? Right, right. That was, what was this guy doing? His first touch, God. Oh my gosh. So tough choices there for Coach Simmons, uh, Curry or Gate, which, which way do I go for people, for people who don't know, Todd Curry was the first team all American played on team USA. So that's who he is pulling aside to put Gary Gate. Exactly, exactly. And, and again, Cindy not on X and O guy, but he is like, I know I got a C 38. Do something. Right. Let's see, let's see what my boy's made of. Right. Well also really interesting though,'cause Jay you asked about wanting to know Coach Simmons, like Yeah. Uh, you can say it's about being cold, but you know, I mean, Jay, you and I played in that era, it practices weren't 90 minutes five on four helter skelter. Just, you know, so, and, and everybody knew when you guys got into an unsettled, I mean, you had great talent, but if the ball got going and things got helter skelter, forget about it. Weren. Right. And so you could feel the piranhas coming in for the forensic, like, okay, it's ing to hear that, but that's what he prepared you guys for. He, he, it was that up that fast pace didn't just happen. Right. That was right. The game he knew he had that game. Horses, he knew he had athletes. So he's gonna drill you guys on. Just keep coming at him, keep moving the ball, keep moving each other. It's really interesting to hear that. And you know, he, he is, uh, he is a famous, you know, a world renowned artist, so, and he's kind of a, kind of the hippie, trippy kind of guy, right? He sixties and the whole thing. Right. And, you know, selling art on Cape Cod, he's that, that guy, but he also was a boxer, and he is got a little, he's got some, some dirt under his fingernails. You know what I mean? He, he, huh. Yeah. And, and that blend of, of trying to. Find a good word for the, for the artsy part of him, the, the, the elegance of him. Mm-hmm. Right. And the, the, the, um, you know, he'd take us to museums, he'd, you know, we all kinds of different stuff, you know, like Huh. The Renaissance man. Yes, thank you. But also, you know, a peer purist with boxer, mess with him. Yeah. Go, go, go poke him and see what you get. Yeah. And so we had that, a Renaissance man who would punch you in the nose, right? Absolutely. And, and, and, and you know, Syracuse lacrosse had lean days in the seventies. They wanted to drop the program that wasn't funded. He's teaching art on campus, you know, making no money. Uh, and you know, he, he had a chip on his shoulder. You know, Cornell used to pound the crap out of us right. In the sixties, seventies. Yeah. You think he didn't enjoy beating him at home for a national championship in 1988? To go 15 and all right. I mean, Damon McEnany, those guys thrilled. Syracuse, Syracuse. Could not play with those guys back then. Right. So he he was always a little, eh, yeah. Richie, what do you think of that? Right. You know, I mean, he's a tough old bastard, you know, so he was not just, he's not just the artist. He's, uh, like I said, he's got a little grunge to him and, uh, and, and that was a great recipe, you know? Yeah. That's amazing. Like, he, he, there's nothing like him in the, in the, in the world. I remember Pat McKay saying, you know, before game one or one of these big games, maybe playing Hopkins or something. Yeah. You know, coach Simmons came out and he said, all I ever needed to learn, I learned in kindergarten. I was like, that was the pregame speech. Or, or maybe before the bus ride and we all read it on the bus or something. Looking at him. I'm like, what? Like the guy was a mystery and yet, like you said, he was a boxer too. Yeah. Well I gotta tell you my, my, I'm gonna give you one quick one'cause he is got 8,000 great stories, but my favorite one pregame. And the best part was John Desco is very black and white. Like, here are the matchups. This kid's a lefty, this kid's a righty uhhuh McCade. You're, you're guarding him. So he's chomping on his gum with the lineup sheet behind him, and Roy Simmons wants to talk about the Wizard of Oz. Right. What are we missing? What are we going to get? Like, right. Did that hold down? Like, whoa, Tesco's, like, do you That's classic, you know, camillis New York. Yeah. You know, I need to, I need to coach here for a minute. Right, right. So anyways, my all time favorite was, he started telling a, um, story about, he opens up, there's a football game between the insects and the animals. And the first half goes and the animals much bigger and stronger drilling the insects, you know, and the insects are defenseless and, and, uh, you, I'm paraphrasing the whole thing. Second half opens up. Opening kickoff. Animals kick to the insects, centipede catches it, centipede go. Wha boom, boom, touchdown. Wow. They kick off, centipede runs down, makes a big hit, makes an interception. I mean, he just turns the whole game around and they, and they win. And, and you know, coach comes up to him after the game, says Jesus Christ, Mr. Senate people, where the hell were you in the first half? And he goes, I was getting my ankles taped, you know, just to loosen you up. Let's go play. Right, right. Oh my gosh, what? My favorites? Yeah. Oh yeah. No. And he, and, and multiply that by a hundred. And that was my experience of those types of, you know, we're building a church. Big potatoes come to the top. One farmer spent the time sorting'em. The other guy just took'em down the cobblestone road'cause the big potatoes come to the top. I mean, the. On and on and on. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Absolutely doesn't like it. Now Jay, Matt did win some championships. Perhaps we should, we should get back to some championship memories. Just a few. Hit us with a few top memories. I mean, these have been awesome stories. I'm loving it. But maybe just focus one or two colonels from those three title wins. Yeah. I, uh, the first one, very special. Cornell, Syracuse, upstate rivalry. Right? I think. I think, and we had 20,000 people in the do, and I think it's the first time lacrosse game had ever had 20, you know, 20 or more. Um. And again, great rivalry. Paul Scheller, good buddy of mine, God rest his soul in the other cage. Um, right. And then you win the MVP schmo and I win the right, I win the MVP and uh, Burney cheeses me, he goes, it's'cause we all had two goals. Nobody went off. So that one was really special. And, and again, I at Syracuse Yeah. You know, played well and, and in a big moment, you know, first time ever being, and that was so much fun. Um, you know, coming off the heels of Airgate, we, we were in deep trouble against Penn that year. Yeah, that's right. Semis when Gary got into the, the Dunking. Um, so that whole weekend was really, really pretty cool. The, you know, the Penn game was, was, you know, still legendary. Right. And, and then yeah. A one gold game. Great. That was an amazing, amazing game. Yeah, and I had a great experience on Monday, so, you know, that one's special. The Hopkins game in 89 that we come back and win. Um, I'm playing like a pig for the first three quarters of the game and I, and, and what I'm most proud of is I dig out, but you made the last save and I made a couple good ones in between, like I, I, I, I, I showed a little grit that my dad was like. I know and it's easy to play good when you're playing. Good. Let me see something when you're down. Right, right. Love it. And my, my dad was actually proud of me that day'cause he goes, you hung in there and you made some plays. Good for you. That's awesome. That's awesome. That was, and then the last one, anyone who hasn't seen it, you can look at that on YouTube in its entirety. Yeah. It's an, um, Petro Gary. Right. The two, the two greatest, you know, hammering each other. Gary Gate was being dominated by Petal. No, I don't think so. He, he only scored three goals, but that's like the commentary from the game. I'm like, if I go out and score three goals, the national championship game, I'm like, yeah. Right. They're like, oh Gary, he's interviewing me three points. Gimme a break, gimme six or more. Absolutely. And then my senior year, you know, we, we, we uh, we hammer Loyola 21 to nine. Yeah. And that game was kinda like a culmination, like the cherry on the top of the three years of just blitzing people. We blitzed them, you know, was not, this was other domination. Yes. We were on the receiving end of that team. We played you guys in the playoffs and we love to this day, even Dom SAR says it, yes. We gave them the closest game by losing 20 to 12 and meanwhile it was really 18 to 12. Our goalie, you guys are trying to run the clock out. Snake runs out to the midfield outta the goal, and you guys throw it in the goal like two more goals. It's like, snake, come on. We had'em at 18, 12, right where we wanted them. What are you doing? Well, Jay, you know what I remember about that? Like, we're, we're like, uh, we're at the airport and everybody, like all the Syracuse people, like, wow, you guys played tremendous. Like, what? You know, you lose my, we lost my eight golf. The people are like, I can't believe you guys. You guys really gave them a run. I mean, seriously, that's like, it was like, it was unbelievable. That's how good you guys were. You lose my eight, it's so you lose my eight and it's a moral victory. And you Right, and you were that good. You win the national title game 21 to nine. That's how good that team was. That's why I think, like I said, that was the perfect ball on the package. Like, what a nice piece of work. See you later. Right, right. Well, that's always my argument for the greatest team of all, you know, all time. Yeah. Yeah. How about if we, how about if we transition to. J m l and let's do that. All right, everyone. Let's talk about greatness. When people debate the greatest division one lacrosse teams ever, it's not just about who won the most games, it's about how they did it and what kind of standard they set. Take Maryland in 2022. We just had Coach Logan Wizowski on the program speaking about his experiences. He was on that team. They went 18 and oh, perfect. Every time they stepped on the field, they dominated. Same with Johns Hopkins in 2005, undefeated, hard-nosed, and they finished with a dramatic championship win. And UVA did the very same thing the very next year under our former coach and good friend Dom Storia in 2006. But they did it with an overpowering offense.. All three of those teams showed greatness through perfection. Now you've got the dynasties. We've been discussing Syracuse in the late eighties with the Gate Brothers. They literally revolutionized the game. Three straight championships dog. Steve and I know from experience,'cause we played them every year, they were fast-paced, fearless, and creative. Princeton in the late nineties. Under yet another guest of the show coach Bill Tierney Princeton, and Coach Tierney won six titles in 10 years by being disciplined, precise, and relentless on defense. That's greatness through sustained excellence, and more recently, look at Duke in 2013 or Virginia in 2019. Those teams weren't undefeated, but. What made them legendary was their resilience. Duke found ways to win close games and peak at the right time. Two time guests of the show, Lars, Tiffany's, Virginia, in 2019 pulled off comeback after comeback nine. In total. A lot of those games there were losing by six or seven goals, and they won those games and seven of those games They won them in overtime. Why? Because they never quit no matter what the scoreboard said. That's greatness through heart and belief. So here's the lesson we can take from all this. Greatness doesn't look just one way. Sometimes it's dominance, sometimes it's discipline, sometimes it's grit. But every one of those teams had the same core truth. Every player bought in gave their best effort and put the team above themselves. You wanna be remembered. You wanna chase greatness. Then do what those teams did. Buy in, compete every day. Don't wait for someone else to carry you. Be the guy who raises the standard. That's what turns a good team into one. People talk about for years and years to come. Stay on track everyone. No falling off the rails. speaking of no guardrails that so many of our listeners describe the college lacrosse recruiting trail. So we've responded by putting excerpts of our 10 best interviews with legendary coaches, such as bill Tierney, Lars, Tiffany and Andy towers. Into a book that you can access on Kindle, it is available on Amazon, under the title inside the recruiting game insights from college lacrosse coaches. Now we will return to our interview So Jay, I think, I think you had one last question, and then I think our, our roving reporter, Steve Gfi, had some one, one or two final questions from some, just, just to polish it off some, so from some guest questioners, Matt. So we'll let you get ready for that. A few people, a few listeners writing in. But yeah, the final question, wanna finish this off Jay question. The script here was that, you know, you've become easily the most recognizable and likable referee in the game of lacrosse, if not the only one. What do you attribute that level of success to? I mean, there's, there's, like, you, you go online, I'm like looking up Matt Pale lacrosse. There's like 400 tiktoks of Matt Palem in games. Like, look at this clip from Matt Pale. I mean, I'm not kidding with like literally 10,000 likes or more. I mean, it's like you're a phenomenon in I think the, the passion. I love to be out there and, and when I'm dead and gone. If, if people talk say something about me, I don't care. You say I'm suck, or I'm good, or whatever. You know what? He loved being out there. Right? I can live in dying peace. If, if that's what, and that's what comes through. Yeah. That's what comes through. Usually when I say I love being out there, somebody says to me, it looks like it. Right. And again, back like how lucky I I travel the country and ref the best players in the world with my buddies, um, and get paid. You know, if you ever told me I was gonna make, you know, over 20 grand reffing, prolo cross in the summer league, you know, 20 years ago, I've said, yeah, right. Sign me up for that. Right. Yeah. You, you know what I mean? So, right. Uh, they didn't know that you would be willing to do it for 18 bucks a game. Exactly. Wait a minute, uh oh. Don't, we're gonna edit this part out. We don't want the PLL to hear this. Yeah. Right. No, and again, back to chip chickens, I say Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Let, let me just finish the thought. Yeah. Lucky to have, and, and you guys, you can get it in different ways whether you're making a big business deal or, or whatever, but you're not doing something mundane. Getting that chicken soup for your soul is very important. Right. Very. However you get it, whether it's playing golf or fishing or whatever it is, you, to get your juices going and, and to put your ass on the line a little bit, I think is healthy. Right. Right. I'm, I'm doing something that, that's challenge nor normal people can't do. Or, or the average guy would shit their pants if they picked up my whistle and went to referee the games next Monday. Right. Right. You would, you're a lacrosse guy. If I gave you my whistle, my my jersey, you'd go to Philly and you'd go all those eyes on you. They're all saying, well, we're waiting. What's the call? Hey, Matt. I, I, I've been sitting here for an hour and a half. I might shit my pants just'cause I, you know, it's been a long time at this age. I mean, so, you know, it's true. I hear, I think people see to throw in there, you know why I think you've been so popular and successful too, is that you have the passion for sure. But then you see that authenticity. And like you're, and you're also really trying to get it right. I mean, honestly, some of these refs, I feel like they're paying, paying back the fact that, you know, the Bill Tierney insulted them on the last play, and I'm gonna give you yours and you're gonna sit there and take it. Exactly. I mean, you do, you feel some of that, but you don't feel that with you. And I think people just respond to that, that the passion, the authenticity, the desire to get it right. Like you're literally reaching out to some of the players, like calm down and sometimes tell'em to just shut, shut the hell up. All right, I'm making the call. I'm look at it, I'm gonna look at, I love it when they, when they wanna argue with me. When I'm on my weight, I'm monitor, I'm going to look, I'm pretty good at watching tv. Let me go look. Right. Right. Just shut up. That's great. That's great. It's that interaction too, that human humans. But I also work hard on relationships, meaning, you know, I have a, a rule of wooden Breen and I, and I spread it with my guys. Don't be the first asshole, I'll be the second asshole any day. Do not be the first asshole. And I think if you live like that with, with these guys, so they'll, let's just say I get into it with player, you know, X, Y, Z, and then after the game or the next time I see him, he'll, he'll, he'll say, nah, it'll, when the dust settles, not being the first asshole saves you. Right. Right. Meaning, I like that. No, you, you motherfuck me. I didn't come after you. You know what I mean? Right, right. That whole thing. If you come out and you're the asshole, that's, you got no nothing to stand on. You can't, you know, don't, you don't. That's not why we're there. We're, you know, but again, the old phrase of come from a position of power. I like this one though. Don't be the first asshole. Don't be the first asshole. But you better have and I to learn that lesson though. Better have the guts to be the second one if that's what the game needs. Right, right. I love it. Yep. That's big. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Beautiful. Don't be the first asshole. You gotta be the second one. It's not Right. Yeah. That's like Liz. Laugh, love, but be strong enough and then don't be the first asshole. Right. But be strong enough to be the second one. Yeah. I think they have those signs at home. Good. That, that sounds like, that sounds like a Roy Simmons. But I'm gonna punch you in the nose if you Right. Yeah. Let's talk about the kindergarten rules. But I'll give you an upper cut if you need it. Hey, uh, hey Steve, I'm gonna turn it over to you. But in doing that, uh, Maddie, I'm gonna tell you, this has been awesome. You'll remind me of the only other ref who I can remember. I'm sure we all have'em, but like the passion and the joy from reffing a game and, and was Scotty Boyle. And, and I wanna remember him. I'm Scotty, I wanna remember him as we turn it over to Steve and I'll just tell a game, Jay, this was a game. I, I, Steve, what am I doing? I'm like complimenting Jay. We're playing it down at Loyola. Come on, Gotti's roughing the game. Loyola's up and we're just coming at'em. And Scotty's running right in front of our bench, and he turns over and he goes, God, I love this. You know, because it was just like one of those fourth quarters where it was just like that. And I'm like, you know, how can't you love an official who loves the game that much? Yes. And he wants to be there. And so I think, and what happened next, Ron? That's what, well, Jay, you, you did something and we won, but thank you. Let's not, let's not dwell on that. Yeah. Jay, let's not dwell on that. Matt. We did have, he did, he did manage to get in his U 19 world team reference earlier, which I, this is an ongoing joke, man. Almost every god damn episode, it's like next degrees of separation or Kevin Bacon. It's like one degree. And by the way, Todd Curry was standing on that sideline as an assistant coach for a little, right, right. Oh my God. Todd Curry. Steve. Steve, who was done so strong here, Steve, finish us strong. All right. Well, I just, I had a couple questions before we get to our viewer. Mail is, uh. What's it like after the game, Matt? You're going back to your car. You still have the flag in your pocket. How do you shut the refereeing off? Like if you see somebody who doesn't return their shopping cart, do you just feel like throwing the flag flag? Like is it hard to turn that off or are you just constantly watching people do stuff wrong? You know what, like, the funny part about me is like, by nature, like I'm a deadhead. I'm a, I'm more of a hippie love. Uh, I am not an aggressive, you know what I mean? Like that's where I let that stuff out. I really am not that guy Meyer from, that's where the passion and, and these guys lead me to is, is, and that's. My, and again, I think the communication, I pride myself on communication, right? And, and that's building relationships, and that's not being the first asshole and, and all that, all that good stuff. So, so my, I like to communicate in a way, like if I, if I treated the rest of the world, like, you know, treated it like a game, then you'd be the guy at the restaurant going, no, get away from, you know what I mean? So, right. So I try to have appropriate communication in whatever situation I'm in. Right? I love it. So, yeah. But no, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a peaceful, uh, you know, again, my, my career, I, I, I equate myself a little bit to Bob Weir, right? Nobody's been on stage more than Bob Weir in the last 60 years. And that's my guy. Yeah, that's great. Yes. Alright, so we do have viewer mail. Uh, this one is, uh, comes in from Andy and New Canan. And, uh, he says, uh, which PLL coach was most quote helpful in your quest to get calls right in real time during games, current or past coach, uh, uh oh, ever in the history of the league. Definitely Coach Towers would, would be on, on the top of that list. And how did he help? What did he do? I, I, well, I gotta tell you a funny story. My favorite one ever, he was coaching at Dartmouth, and you know, as we, as we came up through the nineties, early two thousands, whatever, the rules changed every, right, right, yeah. Every two seconds. So anyways, we had that one part where, um. You had like, I forget, 10 seconds to maybe get it outta your defensive end and then in between your defensive end and the midline. There was no time. Think about it. You could, you could spend all day, so many changes. We can't even remember. Then once you got it over right, we were trying to figure out, right, right. So it was like the first, uh, they were riding whoever they were playing and so the, I think the team had had 10 seconds to get it out and I'm coming up the field and this was a new rule. So Andy comes down towards the end of the box after, you know, now we, they've got pressure. It's starting to get interesting time-wise, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and he sees my arm chop and Right, and he goes, 6, 7, 8. Is this helpful? Nice. Right. So, so yes, I'm helping, I had a ton of fun with, with a, at is one of my favorites of all time and he again is a, is a, he is a chicken soup for the, I'm sure he misses it. Um, he, he, he gets the passion and the, and the love. And it's fun. I always say to people when they, when people see me laugh, smile, whatever, they, they call these things games for a reason, right? Yeah. They're not lacrosse exams, they're, they're lacrosse games. Right. And, and we all got into it for fun to have some fun with it. And, and that doesn't mean you can't compete and get after it, but Yeah. And that's Andy Towers to a team. I was, I was just gonna say that's so true. I mean, that's part of what made it Markable and he and I are built very similarly, uh, interesting. Spiritually, not physically, right? Not many physically. Yes. That's awesome. Very cool. Andy also writes in, he says, what is your theory as to where the 1990 trophy is hidden? That's a great que It's funny. Even you have a theory or you know, a hundred percent no, I, I honestly, God, do not know now. So Coach Simmons still alive and I visit him, you know, is he Yeah. Monthly or whatever. Yeah. He lives 10 minutes from me. He's 90 years old and still the best part is he is got a, his brains and, and can still bullshit with the best of'em. So, so we have a lot of fun with it. So I've always said, when people ask me about the trophy, I go, uh, I go, you know, there's only one guy alive that I'm aware of that really knows where it is, and lemme tell you something, he's gonna be too cool to tell you. So I wouldn't ask him. I, I would never ask him. Um, but I, I, I honest to God, have no idea. I don't know if it's, if he's got it stashed and you know, it's not really his style. People who, dunno, people don't know out there. The 1990 title supposedly was voided or whatever you might call it from the NCAA for some violation. Vacated. Yes. Vacated. It was vacated. Yes. Yep. And then it wasn't that Loyola won, it was that no one won. Apparently no one won. Well, you guys won 21 to nine the championship case. Yes. But anyway, so the the, so they come to like literally take the trophy outta the trophy case, right? Isn't that what Yeah. And then like it's gone. Send us, it's like we're we're coming for the trophy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not sending it to you. Then they come to get it and someone took it and buried it somewhere or something and Yeah, it's never been seen again. So did they like interview Coach Simmons and were like, um, where's the, like what ha was there anything with that? I don't know the story. You know what? I've seen him interviewed where he answers that. Well, I think there's some friends of Syracuse lacrosse that could probably figure out where it is if they ever reinstated our. Championship, that, that type of thing Right. Might all of a sudden be found. That's, yeah. So again, amazing how that would work. Everyone has too much respect to say, come on coach, where is it? Nobody will do it. Nobody. Everybody's like, oh, no, no. I have a, uh, I like my take on it and that. So we won three titles and you know, I always say to people, I think it's kind of sexy that one of'em has a scandal attached to'em. And that's the ring that I wear all the time. Oh, right. That's great. Right. Didn't vacate this ring. It's right here. Right, right here, baby. So, yeah. Beautiful, beautiful. Good stuff. All right. Hey, well, uh, Matt, we can't thank you enough for all this time. It's so much fun to talk to you. So many great memories of a, of a life in the game, really, that you've spent. Yeah, and I, I was thinking about, like, I hadn't really thought about this way, but so many of the greatest games I've played in or watched. Have been, you've been involved in, you know, so like, like anybody who really cares about the game, you've been along in that journey with'em for the last 40 years. So just so grateful for all that you've given to the game and for the time you spent with us today. Absolutely. Thank you so much guys. We put you on our Mount Rushmore of lacrosse. Yeah. So much fun doing this with you guys too and, and reconnecting with, with guys that I played against and, and like you said, know each other from a distance and that's what's great about our game and that still exists in our game, which is cool that it's, you know, you see a lacrosse guy and you're like, yeah, lacrosse guy. Right, right, right, right. We can talk the whole sport. We got something, we got something to talk about. Right, exactly. We got something, we got something no other sport's got. Absolutely, man. Absolutely. Until we meet again. Here's to hoping you find the twine. We're signing off here at the get the lax scoop. Thanks again so much. We will see you the next time.