S3 E31. From Inside the Crease to Behind the Whistle: Matt Palumb's Lacrosse Journey, Part III.

In this episode of 'Get the Lax Scoop,' hosts Big Dawg and Jaybird bring you an engaging interview with Matt Palumb, the head referee of the Premier Lacrosse League and a three-time NCAA Tournament MVP. The episode covers Matt's illustrious journey from collegiate play to becoming one of the most respected officials in lacrosse, emphasizing the importance of referees in the game. Matt shares memorable experiences, discusses rule changes, and reflects on the evolution of the game from the MLL to the PLL. He also sheds light on the challenges and the future growth opportunities, including the sport's inclusion in the Olympics. The episode concludes with humorous anecdotes and genuine insights into what makes a great referee, making it a must-listen for lacrosse enthusiasts.

00:00 Introduction to Get the Lax Scoop Podcast

00:59 Part III Interview with Matt Palumb Begins

01:29 Memorable Lacrosse Moments and Controversial Calls

06:45 Discussion on Dylan Malloy's Impact

08:14 Transition from MLL to PLL

12:45 Future of Lacrosse and Olympic Opportunities

18:47 Transition to JML

18:52 Appreciating Referees: The Unsung Heroes of Lacrosse

19:42 The Importance of Referees in Lacrosse

20:30 Encouraging Respect and Recruitment for Referees

21:22 College Lacrosse Recruiting Insights

21:51 Final Questions for Matt Palumb

22:34 Matt's Passion for Refereeing

23:50 The Challenges and Rewards of Being a Referee

25:38 The Philosophy of Refereeing

27:22 Memorable Moments and Stories

33:54 The Mystery of the 1990 Trophy

36:20 Concluding Thoughts and Gratitude

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Links to training videos:
Master The 5 Best Dodges From the Wing!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_7LDOcQQ6Q&t=88s

Blazing Shots... on the Run!
https://youtu.be/XiptPlM63oQ

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SuccessHotline with Dr. Rob Gilbert on Ironclad & Apple Podcasts

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Lacrosse Charities Mentioned in S2 E36:
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https://15forlife.org/

Transcript

0:00

It's time for Get the Lack Scoop, a podcast bringing you all the people and stuff you should know in the game of lacrosse. We take lack seriously, but ourselves, not so much. Join host Big Dog and Jaybird and the biggest names in the game brought to you by Jay McMahon lacrosse. That's JML skills, mindset, and lacks IQ training. Ron Doglish, the big dog, was a collegiate football and lacrosse player at Brown. He was also an assistant lacrosse coach and the executive director of the Sports Foundation. And Jay McMahon, the Jaybird, a three time All American midfielder at Brown. He was the captain of the U. S. Junior National Team and is the founder of JML. And Joining us in the studio, Steve Grisolfi, who's collegiate lacrosse career statistics equals one goal against Dartmouth brought to you by Jay McMahon lacrosse. That's JML skills, mindset, and lacks IQ training, helping the next generation of lacrosse players get to the next level Hello everyone, and welcome. We're super excited to bring you the next installment of our interview series with NCAA Tournament, MVP and three time National Champion at Syracuse, and the head referee of the Premier Lacrosse League, Matt Palem. If you have not heard the earlier message, we urge you to go back and check it out for if you do, we believe you will profit mightily. You will find this interview in progress. There's two minutes left. Like it has gotta be the slash from hell if we're gonna throw a flag. Is that part of your mindset? So if you remember this, if you remember this play. This is, I do remember it. Okay. Luke Gold stock, I'll never forget the kid's name. Yeah. From J North. Happened for Carolina. Yeah. And they actually end up, which was, thank God for us, they had a like a gold cam, right? Looking Yeah. At these two kids. So there's a Def Luke Gold stock and whatever defenseman is guarding them for Maryland Wax gold stock. They're cheap. They're, they're cheap in the ball, down the field with one second to go on the national title game. And you can tell that the defenseman, you know, says something, or you know, they're, whatever. They're jostling, but nothing you're gonna call with one second to go on the title game. Luke Gold Stock's response was to cross check him in the nuts, you know, crushed like, yeah. And what, what, what always upset me about that play was. You know, so we put a man up and, and thank God the, the Maryland gear, the Carolina kid makes a save. And the best part about it was they ended up whacking somebody in the head at the other end. So now Carolina goes man up and Exactly. That's what they want. But let's back up for a second. Yeah. What, what always pissed me off about that play was nobody, nobody Wanted to talk about Luke Gold Stock putting his personal agenda Yeah. Ahead of his whole team to win a national championship game. Right. It was that important to him to get his, and this was not like a nudge, this was crack. Right. Right. But that's how important it was to him Yeah. To get his piece of flesh Right. And that's our fault. That's, that's what's, that's the shit, the part that sucks about officiating. Yeah. Right. If you wanna talk about the playing game. Matt, I so remember, uh, brush Joe Brush was a, a roommate of mine for a few years. Yeah. I love the guy who I love. Yep. So I'm, I'm pulling for brush, like e everything in that game. And when you guys make that call, I remember my family is like trying to control me. I'm screaming, I'm jumping around the living room like, uh, I probably called you 150 bad names, but then I saw the replant. I'm like, oh, I know the re I remember that replay. It was just like kept, they kept doing it. Yeah. Kept playing it. I'm like, ah God. That was alright. I guess he you got call that one, you know, like, and did you know what the Carolina sideline did? The old did this? Yeah. Signed for Michael Brey. Yeah. Yeah. That game. Like remember what that was? Their Yeah. That was, was amazing. God. Those like that. God, I forgot about that. So those kind of moments, Michael Brey in that game. Yeah. And, and the. Yeah. So no, that's that. So that, that title game would be, geez, uh, uh, probably that, that sequence would be my most memorable. The, the other crazy one, what was that? That was 16, I think maybe an 18 and a semi, I have Denver and Maryland. Okay. And this is, this is the, it ends up being like a one gold game. And this is the, the game where Colin Cock kind of makes a crazy airborne and he lands and he, in fact, now we're at this, we got no gold mouth. You cannot dive and touch the crease. Right, right, right. So Peacock is right in front of me. Of course, dives makes a great athletic play and scores. And he lands, he's, he's kind of upfield, but his toe pops the crease line, I mean, right. Shoelace. Right. And now we got no replay. I'm standing there, like I'm coming in looking at this play. I go this fucking thing, that toe hit that and I, you know, wave it off. And as I'm doing this, please be right, man. Please. Right. I hope that's what I, which I, I believed I was, but that's how, you know, minuscule the whole thing was, and how close it is to, to doing again. And then when you go home, do you go home and look at the tape like late at night and you're like, you've had a few beers. You're like, oh, it did. Okay, here's the replay, the official talking. Oh my gosh, that great. But that's what you were saying earlier. Like, you, you say Maddie, that it's easy to make the calls when you're watching tv, but I'm amazed, which is again, back to Jay's point about how fast it is crazy. And how tiny, like how many times are you looking at the replay and you're like. You know. Right, right, right. Until the fifth time you're like, oh, now I can see it. It's go, first of all, it's also going slow motion. Slow motion. They're like blowing it up and you're like, is this, you know? Exactly. It just shows the kind of calling you guys how to make Yeah. Like the speed you're watching it, it's crazy. No, and back and back then without a net, without replay. You know what I mean? Totally. You got one shot at it, either have the guts to call it or you're gonna live with it or whatever. So, um, but no, the, the lot of fun stuff out there and, and again, just grateful and lucky and. Having fun. I wanna go back to 16 because mad, I'm sure you'll agree with us here as two brown guys, that if Dylan Malloy is healthy, the Bears are the national champions. I mean, let's be clear, I'm a huge Dylan Malloy guy. I, I love his game. Yeah, he is, uh, he is so fun to watch and, and, uh, no, I, I couldn't agree with you more. He, and he had a great game over the weekend going up against ette. I mean, that was, that was interesting because now he's so slick. Right. He's just such now he leaner a smart. Yeah. He's so smart. Such a good game. Yeah. Well, well he, and now he's got a little low to high, which he never had, you know, he's, he's so sound, fundamentally. Yeah, he's, he's healthy, you know, when he's healthy, he, he is a monster. And, and, uh. Great kid. Great kid. Yeah. Yeah. He's a great guy. We had him on, we talk about a linebacker, you talk about a linebacker playing attack. Oh. I mean, in college, watching him for four years, it's just like he would just drive himself into the, the chest of a defender. He's really good. Ready? He gets on the, gets on the corner and just crams that shoulder and he is so good at like finding the middle of your Yeah. You know? Yeah. Mile driver. Yeah. The only thing I don't like about him and he can turn on a dime. The only thing I don't like about him when, because I ref on the side that he likes to plan. He's got me basically in the stands.'cause he likes to come out. I'm like, yeah. Like, dude, I got rough. It's like, Randy, get outta my way out the way. So other than that, we're good. Now, you said a little bit earlier about kind of like the MLL, it was like a beer league, you know, early on. Yeah. And, um, so tell us a little bit about like, the transition, you know, from the MLL to the PLL and it appears that the PLL is a world apart. Um, but you tell us. Yeah. Like, you know what, you know. Yeah. And, and again, I don't mean to discredit those guys. There were some great, great great players down there. Oh, absolutely. Or in those days, incredible players. And I think what's a more accurate statement is the MLL had a model where, you know, I'm working at Merrill Lynch, you know, with a suit and tie on all week, right? And I'm showing up in Boston on a Friday for a walkthrough and a game. Right. Um, and what I, and what the PLL as we've gotten into that, what we've learned with that is, um, that. The guys that are make, those guys aren't making it anymore. For the mo. There aren't a lot of guys wearing, right. Wearing, wearing a tie all week. Some, not a bunch of them. Right. That can still balance their life enough to, to be ready to go. So more so the model is, it's the guy that runs a club team has a stick in his hand all week or gives lessons. Mm-hmm. Or you know, and they get together and they work out. And these kids are just, I mean, you know, so it, it's, it's just evolved and to be honest with you, not unlike all the other pro sports Right. But ours has happened a little later in life, so to speak. Right, right. Because we're, we're newer than football or, or, or, you know, all the, the, the big ones. So that's the, the biggest thing I've seen just, you know, guys have, are, are figuring out ways to spend more of their time and make a living through the game. Which, you know, you can definitely see the guys that have a stick in their hand all the time and the things they're doing out there are just ridiculous. So they're, they're, they're, they're more, they're able to, I, I'm not gonna say they're bigger junkies than we were when we were playing, but they're more able to live their life in that lacrosse junkie world where you can make a couple hundred grand or more, or, you know, you're playing indoor outdoor, you got a club team, nice little living they're making. Right? Yeah. So. Right. So I think that I is the real difference because, uh, the, the, those guys were on incredible players, you know, at the beginning of the MLL as well. Right. Administration wise, you know, there's more people in my family than, than were working for the MLL, you know what I mean? Right, right. Like they're, they have like six people. Right. You go to a PLL weekend, oh my god. Tractor trailers and, and millions of'em, you know what I mean? Just right. There are people involved in this that we're like, you know, seems like hundreds interns and Oh, so, and you know, I think the serious investors, and I don't know anything about that world, but you know, we got some have stepped in. Yeah, right. Yeah. We got some real money to spend to actually try to make it, you know, like, hey, here's, here's the dull, let's see what you can do. And, and I think we're doing a good job of spending and, and expanding our product. Um, you know, if you watch one of our games, I gotta believe, you know, like I thought those two games this weekend were tremendous. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. Yeah. You know, I mean, I had like gotten a little bit out of the mode'cause I was. Pissed off about what happened with Andy Towers. I'm a big Andy Towers fan. Sure. Playing with him. Me too. And so I might have missed the first three or four weeks and then I've gotten back into it and it's just, it's, it's, if we're gonna call it a product, it's an incredible product. It's like, holy cow. It's, it's amazings. It's also pretty cool that the, that young blood influx. Right. You know, the Brennan O'Neill Kavanaugh's. Totally. You know, although, you know, oh God. Dylan, Dylan Malloy's, the old man, he's back, he's like a comeback kid. When he was on our show, he was saying like, you can't keep up with these guys. And then, yeah, he married a woman from Minnesota who's like a big hockey player. He's like, she's got me up at four o'clock in the morning working out two hours a day. That's why he's in such great shape. So she's like the key to his comeback. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean it's, it's amazing. So that's interesting. They've got like a hundred people working, like you said, and they've got the trail. It's just like this army. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Hey Maddie, I wanna ask you a bigger picture question. Yeah. You know, as I'm, as we're sitting here listening to you, I don't know that there's anyone who's had more of a front row seat. So the growth of the game over the last 40 years Right, right. Than you from, from, you know, from those days of playing in front of 20,000 people at the dome, and you know, those are us who played against you. There was no more exciting environment to play in the college game than those years in the dome, you know? Yeah. And now, and you've coached at the, at the World Games level, the MLL, the PLL. And now I think all of us in the game are excited about the Olympic opportunity. And I'm just wondering, what do you think is next for the game? Like where, where, what are the next things that we gotta do to build this sport that we love and continue the growth? Like what's, what's next? Well, so we have a big, big opportunity here with the Olympics, right? Yeah. Coming up. Um, and, and my, and again, they're gonna play sixes, which I'm kind of growing to, to, to love, so to speak. Yeah. Because people are getting better at it. People are starting to learn how to coach it. The players are sort of learning, okay, no, you can't do this, you can't sub off here, you gotta do that. You know, whatever. They're, they're figuring out the recipe to, to sixes. So we have a tremendous opportunity worldwide to, to, you know, showcase our game, I think, in the Olympics, which, which I think will be exciting, where I, what I wish we were doing better with, and again, we were in Minnesota a couple days ago and, and watching the U 20, uh, right, uh, right, the U 20 final or whatever it was. And it was like one to one because. International lacrosse. Yeah. You know, guys, come on. We can't, no one to one isn't gonna do it, boys. We, you know, shot clock. Yeah. Here's, and then this is a kind of a crappy thing to say, but I, world lacrosse needs to kinda look at USA and say, guys, teach us how to do this. Right? I mean, and, and, and the only reason, and I don't mean that arrogantly, I mean that we have so many more opportunities with the game. Pro leagues, big time college games, great club games, great. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, and, and somebody you know from Europe who lives in a country that doesn't have those types of things is making, you know, they're making the, setting the parameters. That just doesn't make, and I don't mean to learn from, let's learn from the people that. I mean, this is not like, maybe we know more than they we do in lacrosse, right? We do. Right? We do. Right. I'm gonna say it. We do, we are the leader. Right? So let the leader show you how to, how to what, what's a good set of rules and what makes it exciting And, and hey, these rules were good in 1962, but guess what? People now can hold the ball for three weeks if they want to, and you're never gonna get it back. You know, that type of stuff. Like, let's not be stubborn and, and, and, you know. Yeah.'cause I was at the 2023 championships and it was great and great setting and everything else, but, and Brendan O'Neill, you know, had an amazing performance. Absolutely. But still, in the end, I was sitting there with my wife and my son. It was kind of boring. Right. You know what I mean? It's like a, some moments of great excitement, but like two hours of just boring ishness. It's like, what are they doing with this game? They gotta, yeah. Step up. I'm with you. Hundred percent. And again, the PLL is the example of the other side of the coin. Right. You know, they keep coming up with things to make it faster and faster. Now people like too fast, too fast, you know, they argue about the 32 second clock. I think it's, I think it's great. Yeah. I, that's, that's one thing I'd wonder, what would you say about, do you think there are some changes maybe the NCA should make or obviously the, the world across federation, but what do you, between the PLL and, and that, what, what do you say there? Any world changes or ideas? Yeah. The only thing that I'm sensitive to with, with college lacrosse is. You have all sorts of levels of college lacrosse. Right. You, you, you got Syracuse versus Maryland and you got, you know, if you're living in upstate New York, you got Morrisville versus Casnovia. Yeah. Right? And, and they play in the same rule book. So, and again, high school, we got into shot clock this year a little bit and be careful about getting it too short.'cause they don't quite have the ability everybody to mm-hmm. Get it done in 60 seconds. Yeah. You know what I mean? Right. Or especially 32 seconds. Right. Like you're seeing the PLL now. Yeah. Even those guys, it's almost a wasted possession when they win the baseball. Exactly. So finally the PLL guys, now they've practiced it and they, they're much better with their 32 clocks than they used to be. Yeah, true. And I think in college. You know, the, the a CC, big 10 Ivy, those kind of people I think could probably play under, uh, uh, that the PLL set of rules with a short, short clock on the, mm-hmm. Basically, the PLL was trying to sort of. Lessen the value of the face off. Right. The dominates of the face off. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you can't just win the face off and win the game and that's it. Right, right. Yeah. So, um, and again, we have some of that I think is a cool idea and, and a Yeah. And a good idea. It's very interesting.'cause that is a killer. You know, coach loves Tiffany's a good friend of ours, and he'll say like, you know, some of these games, it just kills you when the other team just has a, you know, a Trevor Baptiste or someone like that and you're just sitting there with your, your hands, you know, in your head. Right? Like, what are we supposed to do here? Exactly. Yeah. Um, so, so yeah, back to the 30, 32 in college, I think that, that, that the, that our very best leagues could probably play under those conditions, but I'd be hesitant to get it into division three and even lower level D one, I think you have a lot of dumping in the corner, which could also get boring if you have too much dump in the corner. We can't get to the goal. Yeah. Thing. Um. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

Dawg: 18:47

How about if we, how about if we transition to. J m l

Jay: 18:51

and let's do that.

18:53

Appreciating referees, the unsung heroes of lacrosse. We're interviewing Matt Palem for a number of reasons, reasons inside of and outside of his career as a referee. But now I want to take a moment and focus on this part of our game, the officiating, because it just doesn't get the respect it deserves. Now it really has been a privilege to interview Matt Palem. As we've mentioned, he's the head referee of the Premier Lacrosse League and one of the most respected officials in College of Lacrosse and has been for over 30 years. As you've heard, what makes him so respected isn't just his knowledge of the rule book. It's his fairness, his willingness to admit when he makes a mistake, and his simple yet powerful reminder that referees are people too. Let's think about it. Without referees, we don't have games. The players can't compete, the coaches can't coach, and the fans can't cheer. These men and women make it possible for us to enjoy the sport we love, and yet, too often what they get in return is anger, criticism, and disrespect from the sidelines. And I'm a bit ashamed to admit it, but I'm one of the biggest offenders out there. But of course the big dog is the biggest offender perhaps in all of human history. But that's absolutely going to change for me at least going forward. Here's the truth. Reps aren't perfect, but neither are players or coaches. They're doing their best in real time, making tough calls under pressure, and they deserve our appreciation, not our abuse. So next time you're tempted to yell at an official stop and remember, the game doesn't happen without them. Show some heart, and here's something else. Lacrosse needs more referees. Right now, there's a shortage across the country. If you love the game and you know the sport, consider stepping up and becoming an official yourself. It's a way to give back, to stay connected, and to make sure the next generation has the same opportunities to play as we did. Let's honor the referees, respect them, appreciate them, and maybe even join them. Because without officials, there's no lacrosse. They are human guardrails that literally keep our sport on track. So without them, we'd be going off the rails left, right, and center. Stay on track everyone. No falling off the rails. speaking of no guardrails that so many of our listeners describe the college lacrosse recruiting trail. So we've responded by putting excerpts of our 10 best interviews with legendary coaches, such as bill Tierney, Lars, Tiffany and Andy towers. Into a book that you can access on Kindle, it is available on Amazon, under the title inside the recruiting game insights from college lacrosse coaches. Now we will return to our interview So Jay, I think, I think you had one last question, and then I think our, our roving reporter, Steve Gfi, had some one, one or two final questions from some, just, just to polish it off some, so from some guest questioners, Matt. So we'll let you get ready for that. A few people, a few listeners writing in. But yeah, the final question, wanna finish this off Jay question. The script here was that, you know, you've become easily the most recognizable and likable referee in the game of lacrosse, if not the only one. What do you attribute that level of success to? I mean, there's, there's, like, you, you go online, I'm like looking up Matt Pale lacrosse. There's like 400 tiktoks of Matt Palem in games. Like, look at this clip from Matt Pale. I mean, I'm not kidding with like literally 10,000 likes or more. I mean, it's like you're a phenomenon in I think the, the passion. I love to be out there and, and when I'm dead and gone. If, if people talk say something about me, I don't care. You say I'm suck, or I'm good, or whatever. You know what? He loved being out there. Right? I can live in dying peace. If, if that's what, and that's what comes through. Yeah. That's what comes through. Usually when I say I love being out there, somebody says to me, it looks like it. Right. And again, back like how lucky I I travel the country and ref the best players in the world with my buddies, um, and get paid. You know, if you ever told me I was gonna make, you know, over 20 grand reffing, prolo cross in the summer league, you know, 20 years ago, I've said, yeah, right. Sign me up for that. Right. Yeah. You, you know what I mean? So, right. Uh, they didn't know that you would be willing to do it for 18 bucks a game. Exactly. Wait a minute, uh oh. Don't, we're gonna edit this part out. We don't want the PLL to hear this. Yeah. Right. No, and again, back to chip chickens, I say Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Let, let me just finish the thought. Yeah. Lucky to have, and, and you guys, you can get it in different ways whether you're making a big business deal or, or whatever, but you're not doing something mundane. Getting that chicken soup for your soul is very important. Right. Very. However you get it, whether it's playing golf or fishing or whatever it is, you, to get your juices going and, and to put your ass on the line a little bit, I think is healthy. Right. Right. I'm, I'm doing something that, that's challenge nor normal people can't do. Or, or the average guy would shit their pants if they picked up my whistle and went to referee the games next Monday. Right. Right. You would, you're a lacrosse guy. If I gave you my whistle, my my jersey, you'd go to Philly and you'd go all those eyes on you. They're all saying, well, we're waiting. What's the call? Hey, Matt. I, I, I've been sitting here for an hour and a half. I might shit my pants just'cause I, you know, it's been a long time at this age. I mean, so, you know, it's true. I hear, I think people see to throw in there, you know why I think you've been so popular and successful too, is that you have the passion for sure. But then you see that authenticity. And like you're, and you're also really trying to get it right. I mean, honestly, some of these refs, I feel like they're paying, paying back the fact that, you know, the Bill Tierney insulted them on the last play, and I'm gonna give you yours and you're gonna sit there and take it. Exactly. I mean, you do, you feel some of that, but you don't feel that with you. And I think people just respond to that, that the passion, the authenticity, the desire to get it right. Like you're literally reaching out to some of the players, like calm down and sometimes tell'em to just shut, shut the hell up. All right, I'm making the call. I'm look at it, I'm gonna look at, I love it when they, when they wanna argue with me. When I'm on my weight, I'm monitor, I'm going to look, I'm pretty good at watching tv. Let me go look. Right. Right. Just shut up. That's great. That's great. It's that interaction too, that human humans. But I also work hard on relationships, meaning, you know, I have a, a rule of wooden Breen and I, and I spread it with my guys. Don't be the first asshole, I'll be the second asshole any day. Do not be the first asshole. And I think if you live like that with, with these guys, so they'll, let's just say I get into it with player, you know, X, Y, Z, and then after the game or the next time I see him, he'll, he'll, he'll say, nah, it'll, when the dust settles, not being the first asshole saves you. Right. Right. Meaning, I like that. No, you, you motherfuck me. I didn't come after you. You know what I mean? Right, right. That whole thing. If you come out and you're the asshole, that's, you got no nothing to stand on. You can't, you know, don't, you don't. That's not why we're there. We're, you know, but again, the old phrase of come from a position of power. I like this one though. Don't be the first asshole. Don't be the first asshole. But you better have and I to learn that lesson though. Better have the guts to be the second one if that's what the game needs. Right, right. I love it. Yep. That's big. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Beautiful. Don't be the first asshole. You gotta be the second one. It's not Right. Yeah. That's like Liz. Laugh, love, but be strong enough and then don't be the first asshole. Right. But be strong enough to be the second one. Yeah. I think they have those signs at home. Good. That, that sounds like, that sounds like a Roy Simmons. But I'm gonna punch you in the nose if you Right. Yeah. Let's talk about the kindergarten rules. But I'll give you an upper cut if you need it. Hey, uh, hey Steve, I'm gonna turn it over to you. But in doing that, uh, Maddie, I'm gonna tell you, this has been awesome. You'll remind me of the only other ref who I can remember. I'm sure we all have'em, but like the passion and the joy from reffing a game and, and was Scotty Boyle. And, and I wanna remember him. I'm Scotty, I wanna remember him as we turn it over to Steve and I'll just tell a game, Jay, this was a game. I, I, Steve, what am I doing? I'm like complimenting Jay. We're playing it down at Loyola. Come on, Gotti's roughing the game. Loyola's up and we're just coming at'em. And Scotty's running right in front of our bench, and he turns over and he goes, God, I love this. You know, because it was just like one of those fourth quarters where it was just like that. And I'm like, you know, how can't you love an official who loves the game that much? Yes. And he wants to be there. And so I think, and what happened next, Ron? That's what, well, Jay, you, you did something and we won, but thank you. Let's not, let's not dwell on that. Yeah. Jay, let's not dwell on that. Matt. We did have, he did, he did manage to get in his U 19 world team reference earlier, which I, this is an ongoing joke, man. Almost every god damn episode, it's like next degrees of separation or Kevin Bacon. It's like one degree. And by the way, Todd Curry was standing on that sideline as an assistant coach for a little, right, right. Oh my God. Todd Curry. Steve. Steve, who was done so strong here, Steve, finish us strong. All right. Well, I just, I had a couple questions before we get to our viewer. Mail is, uh. What's it like after the game, Matt? You're going back to your car. You still have the flag in your pocket. How do you shut the refereeing off? Like if you see somebody who doesn't return their shopping cart, do you just feel like throwing the flag flag? Like is it hard to turn that off or are you just constantly watching people do stuff wrong? You know what, like, the funny part about me is like, by nature, like I'm a deadhead. I'm a, I'm more of a hippie love. Uh, I am not an aggressive, you know what I mean? Like that's where I let that stuff out. I really am not that guy Meyer from, that's where the passion and, and these guys lead me to is, is, and that's. My, and again, I think the communication, I pride myself on communication, right? And, and that's building relationships, and that's not being the first asshole and, and all that, all that good stuff. So, so my, I like to communicate in a way, like if I, if I treated the rest of the world, like, you know, treated it like a game, then you'd be the guy at the restaurant going, no, get away from, you know what I mean? So, right. So I try to have appropriate communication in whatever situation I'm in. Right? I love it. So, yeah. But no, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a peaceful, uh, you know, again, my, my career, I, I, I equate myself a little bit to Bob Weir, right? Nobody's been on stage more than Bob Weir in the last 60 years. And that's my guy. Yeah, that's great. So, you know, one, as you know, one of the things that makes a standout referee is knowing, you know, when to make a call and when not to make a call. So. You know, if you're looking at like the Cracker Barrel logo and restaurant redesign, are you swallowing the whistle on this one? Or are you throwing the flag? Like what, where do you, what's your play there? That's a, what a great question. God curve balled me a little bit. I, yeah, no, I, we, we pick apart every, when we, it's funny when, yeah. I mean, you have to make split second decisions, right? Like, this is happening right away. We're not going to the replay, Matt, here make a call for Christ sake. I, I know, I know. God. No, I'm, I'm gonna, yeah, no, we'd love to, to get into it. To, to, yeah. I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get at it. I'm gonna make a call, I'm gonna get into it. All right. So we're throwing the flag on. Yes. Alright, so we do have viewer mail. Uh, this one is, uh, comes in from Andy and New Canan. And, uh, he says, uh, which PLL coach was most quote helpful in your quest to get calls right in real time during games, current or past coach, uh, uh oh, ever in the history of the league. Definitely Coach Towers would, would be on, on the top of that list. And how did he help? What did he do? I, I, well, I gotta tell you a funny story. My favorite one ever, he was coaching at Dartmouth, and you know, as we, as we came up through the nineties, early two thousands, whatever, the rules changed every, right, right, yeah. Every two seconds. So anyways, we had that one part where, um. You had like, I forget, 10 seconds to maybe get it outta your defensive end and then in between your defensive end and the midline. There was no time. Think about it. You could, you could spend all day, so many changes. We can't even remember. Then once you got it over right, we were trying to figure out, right, right. So it was like the first, uh, they were riding whoever they were playing and so the, I think the team had had 10 seconds to get it out and I'm coming up the field and this was a new rule. So Andy comes down towards the end of the box after, you know, now we, they've got pressure. It's starting to get interesting time-wise, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and he sees my arm chop and Right, and he goes, 6, 7, 8. Is this helpful? Nice. Right. So, so yes, I'm helping, I had a ton of fun with, with a, at is one of my favorites of all time and he again is a, is a, he is a chicken soup for the, I'm sure he misses it. Um, he, he, he gets the passion and the, and the love. And it's fun. I always say to people when they, when people see me laugh, smile, whatever, they, they call these things games for a reason, right? Yeah. They're not lacrosse exams, they're, they're lacrosse games. Right. And, and we all got into it for fun to have some fun with it. And, and that doesn't mean you can't compete and get after it, but Yeah. And that's Andy Towers to a team. I was, I was just gonna say that's so true. I mean, that's part of what made it Markable and he and I are built very similarly, uh, interesting. Spiritually, not physically, right? Not many physically. Yes. That's awesome. Very cool. Andy also writes in, he says, what is your theory as to where the 1990 trophy is hidden? That's a great que It's funny. Even you have a theory or you know, a hundred percent no, I, I honestly, God, do not know now. So Coach Simmons still alive and I visit him, you know, is he Yeah. Monthly or whatever. Yeah. He lives 10 minutes from me. He's 90 years old and still the best part is he is got a, his brains and, and can still bullshit with the best of'em. So, so we have a lot of fun with it. So I've always said, when people ask me about the trophy, I go, uh, I go, you know, there's only one guy alive that I'm aware of that really knows where it is, and lemme tell you something, he's gonna be too cool to tell you. So I wouldn't ask him. I, I would never ask him. Um, but I, I, I honest to God, have no idea. I don't know if it's, if he's got it stashed and you know, it's not really his style. People who, dunno, people don't know out there. The 1990 title supposedly was voided or whatever you might call it from the NCAA for some violation. Vacated. Yes. Vacated. It was vacated. Yes. Yep. And then it wasn't that Loyola won, it was that no one won. Apparently no one won. Well, you guys won 21 to nine the championship case. Yes. But anyway, so the the, so they come to like literally take the trophy outta the trophy case, right? Isn't that what Yeah. And then like it's gone. Send us, it's like we're we're coming for the trophy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not sending it to you. Then they come to get it and someone took it and buried it somewhere or something and Yeah, it's never been seen again. So did they like interview Coach Simmons and were like, um, where's the, like what ha was there anything with that? I don't know the story. You know what? I've seen him interviewed where he answers that. Well, I think there's some friends of Syracuse lacrosse that could probably figure out where it is if they ever reinstated our. Championship, that, that type of thing Right. Might all of a sudden be found. That's, yeah. So again, amazing how that would work. Everyone has too much respect to say, come on coach, where is it? Nobody will do it. Nobody. Everybody's like, oh, no, no. I have a, uh, I like my take on it and that. So we won three titles and you know, I always say to people, I think it's kind of sexy that one of'em has a scandal attached to'em. And that's the ring that I wear all the time. Oh, right. That's great. Right. Didn't vacate this ring. It's right here. Right, right here, baby. So, yeah. Beautiful, beautiful. Good stuff. All right. Hey, well, uh, Matt, we can't thank you enough for all this time. It's so much fun to talk to you. So many great memories of a, of a life in the game, really, that you've spent. Yeah, and I, I was thinking about, like, I hadn't really thought about this way, but so many of the greatest games I've played in or watched. Have been, you've been involved in, you know, so like, like anybody who really cares about the game, you've been along in that journey with'em for the last 40 years. So just so grateful for all that you've given to the game and for the time you spent with us today. Absolutely. Thank you so much guys. We put you on our Mount Rushmore of lacrosse. Yeah. So much fun doing this with you guys too and, and reconnecting with, with guys that I played against and, and like you said, know each other from a distance and that's what's great about our game and that still exists in our game, which is cool that it's, you know, you see a lacrosse guy and you're like, yeah, lacrosse guy. Right, right, right, right. We can talk the whole sport. We got something, we got something to talk about. Right, exactly. We got something, we got something no other sport's got. Absolutely, man. Absolutely. Until we meet again. Here's to hoping you find the twine. We're signing off here at the get the lax scoop. Thanks again so much. We will see you the next time.