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S2 E16. Beyond NIL: The $2.8 Billion NCAA & Universities Settlement Opens the Flood Gates of Pay to Play.

• Jay McMahon, Ron Dalgliesh, & Steve Gresalfi/Drew Fox • Season 2 • Episode 16

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In this episode of Get the LAX Scoop, hosts Ron 'Big Dog' Dalgliesh and Jay 'Jaybird' McMahon introduce their special guest, Drew Fox, a University of Virginia alumni and former lacrosse team captain. Drew shares his lacrosse journey, emphasizing the significant influences and experiences from his college days. The episode delves deeply into the complexities of NIL (Name, Image, Likeness) in collegiate sports, including the recent $2.8 billion House vs. NCAA settlement. Drew discusses the implications of NIL on student-athletes, fundraising challenges for smaller programs, and potential future shifts in college athletics' revenue models. This insightful conversation offers a thorough understanding of the evolving landscape of college sports and its broader impact.



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Jay:

It's time for get the La Scoop, a podcast bringing you all the people and stuff you should know. In the game of lacrosse, we take LAX seriously, but ourselves, not so much. Join hosts, big Dog and Jaybird, and the biggest names in the game. Brought to you by Jay McMahon lacrosse. That's J M L Skills, mindset, and LAX IQ training. Ron Doish, the big dog, was a collegiate football and lacrosse player at Brown. He was also an assistant lacrosse coach and the executive director of the sports found. and Jay McMahon, the Jaybird, a three time All-American Midfielder Brown. He was a captain of the US Junior National team and is the founder of J M L. And joining us in the studio, Steve gfi, who's collegiate lacrosse career statistics equals one goal against Dartmouth. Brought to you by Jay McMahon lacrosse. That's J M L Skills, mindset, and LAX IQ training. Helping the next generation cross players. Get to the next level.

Well, everyone, welcome to another episode of Get the LAX Scoop. We've got a really interesting episode for you today. To say the least,

Speaker:

Ron.

Speaker 3:

Well yes, Jay. I'm not sure that was a necessary comment, but thank you for chiming in there. Appreciate it very much. You know, our guest today really is going to try to make sense of what is just an ever changing world in collegiate athletics and NIL and how it's now legal through the NCAA, to pay athletes and some of the recent, agreements that have come forward. So we're really excited to have our guests with us today. And J, as usual, I'm gonna give you the honors to do the introduction and get us rolling here.

Speaker:

Thank you, Ron. Very, very courteous of you. Our next guest is a 1994 alumnus of the University of Virginia, where he was the team captain of the Cavaliers during his senior campaign. During his playing days with the Wahoos, he was part of a regular season ACC championship in 1993, and in his senior year with the 1994 squad, He led an incredible run in the NCAA tournament, coming up just one goal shy of a national title. That accomplishment marked the first time UVA had made an appearance in the finals since 1986. Following graduation, he has enjoyed a highly successful career in the world of finance in New York City, as well as being a very active alumnus of the University of Virginia. He's a founder of the Virginia Lacrosse Alumni Network, as well as being involved in developing CAV Futures, the official NIL collective of Virginia Athletics. Please give a warm, get the lax scoop, welcome to Drew Fox. Welcome, Drew. That's amazing,

Speaker 2:

Jay. Thank you, Ron. Great to see you both, and great to be here with you both.

Speaker 3:

Awesome. Drew, we're really excited to have you and to talk about a lot of the complexities facing the world of college athletics and lacrosse. We love to start as they say at the beginning. And you know, the, the three of us are talking here, I think fundamentally, cause we just love the game of lacrosse and it's been a big part of our life. So, you know, we're interested, we're always interested in just learning, where did it start for you? Where, who were some of the early people that influenced you and where did you develop your love of the game?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's I love talking about the early days. I'm really blessed. I was given my first stick by my brother, Rod Fox, 1977. Rod went on to a two sport career at Middlebury College playing football and lacrosse.

Speaker 5:

I got

Speaker 2:

an STX Sam there right in the beginning. And was really fortunate to have one of the pioneers in the Philadelphia lacrosse area, Norm Trinish, who was an advertising executive who teamed up with one of the Philadelphia Flyers, Barry Ashby to start a youth league. And that really was the beginning of my lacrosse career there in the Philadelphia area.

Speaker:

Nice. That's cool. Love the sound. So, so that

Speaker 3:

must have been a physical, knowing the reputation of the Flyers back then, it must have been a physical brand of lacrosse you all were taught early on there.

Speaker 2:

I mean, Ronnie, we would go play a little bit later on in the high school all star games in other states and there would be fights during the game. That was just natural. Two minutes for roughing. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker:

That's awesome. So next we'd like to jump to your experience at UVA. You played two years for Jim Ace Adams and then two years for Dom, the Dominator, Starja. I think I just made that up, but it sounds pretty good. Suffice it to say these two legendary coaches had really different coaching styles and personalities. So let's start with Ace Adams. What was it like playing for Ace back in 1991 when you were a freshman and then 92 as a sophomore?

Speaker 2:

Well, you guys will get a kick out of it. My final choice was Brown University and the University of Virginia. Really? Yeah, I went up to see Dom. We stood outside the hockey arena and we talked a lot about the future and Providence and when I called him ultimately, he said, you know, the door's never shut. You call me back if you need to Brown's always here for you and I never forgot that by Dom.

Speaker:

It's a good thing you didn't, you didn't piss him off when you would have seen him again, right? Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. I really was fortunate with college coaches. I had Ace Adams and Mike Caravana as my two primary coaches the first two years. Mike legendary attackman there, four year All American. For people who

Speaker:

don't know, I'll just throw in, he was at Brown when Ron and I were being recruited. Exactly. He recruited the heck outta me. And as soon as I got there, he was at UVA. I was like, oh, he's a great guy. Great coach. Really smart coach.

Speaker 2:

I'll let you jump back in. Did, did two years immediately following UVA at, at Brown. So you know, these two ACE Adams being one of the true gentlemen, pioneers of the sport, one of the great all time midfielders won four national titles at Johns Hopkins. Did not lose a game in his college career. Played three sports at Hopkins went on to successful stints at Army and UPenn. And then. Won national

Speaker:

titles, right? Yeah, exactly. Right? Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. So. It was easy you know, playing for, for those folks and certainly they were just incredible coaches. I think where we benefited in the transition to Dom and Mark Van Arsdale one of the legendary offensive coordinators with 11 rings and just an incredible offensive game sense.

Speaker 5:

Was,

Speaker 2:

We just started really up tempo ball and that was the key to our success early on with Dom being at the at the national championship game in his second year.

Speaker:

Right. So what was it like? I would see Ace, cause we played against Virginia at least for a few years and he'd be there in shirt and tie, dress shoes, and then Dom shows up like in a hoodie and his New Balance sneakers. I mean, what a completely different style, right? So what was that like? Was it a big, must've been a big shakeup. Yeah. Yeah. Ace, of course was at the end of his career. He had a long, illustrious career, as you said. But in comes this young guy from New York who's just like, you know, let's go.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I think it was a big shift. Jay, you know coach Adams had five daughters. It was a big family atmosphere there in Charlottesville, Uhhuh when Dom first showed up. We knew it was family because of Chrissy and Molly and Joe and Maggie and Emma, of course. But you know what really woke us up was that first night we're at the house, the whole team's there. And here come all the neighbors over the hill with these platters of lasagna. That was the beginning. Honestly, all the neighbors came. We started family building night number one, and I know that tradition continues.

Speaker:

Right. That's great. Plenty of pasta. Yeah. Beautiful.

Speaker 3:

Drew, we're certainly happy, to spend plenty of time on allowing you to go glory days. We don't want to sell that part short. Obviously we really talked about wanting to get your perspective on your experience as an alum. And. You don't want to start off with how you know, how you came to be so involved in the Virginia lacrosse alumni network and, and tell us a little bit about that organization and then we'll get to how that alumni support and involvement has evolved over time.

Speaker 2:

You know what it was, Ronnie, we we came up short in that championship game, as Jay mentioned. We're sitting there in the locker room with our, with our tiny silver trophy, each of us got, and I just couldn't believe it was over. And you know, there was no magic you know, kind of Butler that came in the locker room that day and handed all the guys that were seniors and grad students, their job tickets. Some of us, myself included, kind of thought that's how it worked and there was so much more preparation you had to do and to be ready and out there and interning and networking and doing all those things. We were really just focused. So hard on the academic and lacrosse piece that it took me, you know, a couple of months to get my foot in the door and to get set up on my career track. And I vowed no, no member of our program would ever have to, you know, walk that trail. We're going to get you set up starting when you arrive, we're going to get you networked and talking to the right people based on your interests. We're going to get you focused on the, the achievements you got to you know, have academically and we're going to progress you through with a mentor or multiple mentors who are going to make sure you're on track to do what you need to do to get to the professional or graduate study of your choosing. That's great. So that was really the promise that I'd made to myself. And then we brought it. not only men's program wide, but now it's across the women's program as well.

Speaker 3:

That's great. And so is the core focus that, that mentoring career piece, is that, has that stayed the core purpose of the organization?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the core, the core purpose has really been to make the group you know, not dissimilar from your Brown, your excellent Brown group to really make the group more cohesive and to mentor the rising student athletes on all things academic and program related. You're, you're going to literally have a mentor or mentors that have walked a mile in your shoes. And so, you have the resources. That you need to know what you have to do to get where you're trying to go after school, because we all know, even if you play pro lacrosse and are an endorsed lacrosse athlete after after your intercollegiate days, there's likely going to be something more in your life than just pure lacrosse.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So in a second Drew, we're going to have Jay jump to talking about some of the recent court cases, but then tell me about, obviously, you know, so you're a great player. You're involved in the Virginia lacrosse alumni network. You're developing those deep connections with all those alums over time. How did you then get involved in the, you know, the Cavs futures, which became their NIL collective? Because I know you were also instrumental in that effort.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so what we really thought about when we thought about NIL was really a way to prepare student athletes for life after sports. And that could be life after a long professional career in the NBA or the NFL or another professional league like the PLL, NLL, whatever. But it's preparing student athletes For life after sports and that's, you know community engagement. That's career networking. That's obviously academic achievement and it's really focusing on the betterment of the student athlete aside from the economic benefit Of if you qualify for name image and likeness, economic benefit, you know, the economic piece

Speaker 3:

and Where would you say Virginia lacrosse was in that evolution of NIL and the game of lacrosse? Because we certainly over the last couple of years, you know, you start here and well, this is what a good midfielder is worth. Like it's conversations you'd never had before. Like, so where, where was, I mean, Virginia is obviously one of the best programs in the country recruiting some of the best kids in the country. So where would you say Virginia was on that spectrum?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we we were really living off when NIL came to be in 20, 2019. And then with the, the final finding in 20, in late June, 2021, we were really just recruiting at that time. In in late June 2021, the old fashioned way, right? A limited number of scholarships spots on the roster and student athletes that were qualifying academically and athletically to be considered as a recruit. And then ultimately a commit we to have heard about the open market values and price tags on certain players and in certain positions. And, you know it's pretty amazing to see.

Speaker 3:

Jay, you want to flash this forward to some of the current developments?

Speaker:

Sure. Absolutely. Drew, as you know, we do want to get into that big court case, House versus NCA, which just settled up in the end of May, just about a week ago. But before we do that in general, could you tell us and our listeners who may not know that much about it, you'd said when it started June, 2021, what was allowed with name, image, and likeness? Because it seems like there was kind of. A lot of funny business going on outside of that but what was actually name, image and likeness? What was allowed? What was not allowed?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So, you know, honestly, name, image, and likeness came out of a case called Alston. Alston was named after a football player at West Virginia University, Shawnee Alston along with other plaintiffs around the limited compensation for. various college athletes sports that were essentially in their claim, violating any trust laws by not compensating athletes. This this process wound its way through courts for two years. And was ultimately arrived upon as I mentioned, late June 2021, where the NCAA announced the interim name, image and likeness finding. And in that the name, image and likeness policy basically allows athletes to be compensated for their NIL. Now, interestingly enough, the NCAA. Basically said this is allowed, but there aren't any rules. So go to it and you can now compensate athletes for their name, image and likeness. And we'll be back either with federal or state or both laws that will restrict this practice. And we may be back with additional N. C. A. A. Rules. So fast forward from late June 2021, there have been all types of behaviors around NIL because literally the road has no guardrails, has no guardrails,

Jay:

How about if we transition to. J m l and let's do that.

Speaking of no guardrails that so many of our listeners describe the college lacrosse recruiting trail. So we've responded by putting excerpts of our 10 best interviews with legendary coaches, such as bill Tierney, Lars, Tiffany and Andy towers. Into a book that you can access for free on our JML app. Simply download the J McMahon lacrosse app at the apple app store or at Google play for Android and check it out. And for those. Who would like a book in their hands? Or on their Kindle, it is available on Amazon, under the title inside the recruiting game insights from college lacrosse coaches. So with that, you will see the description of these items also in the show notes. And due to popular demand, we have put together a Patrion page for the show. This will allow those interested in supporting our efforts to do just that and to get exclusive access to unedited interviews. Big discounts on the JML online courses and merchandise from our new online store. Big additions to the JML course catalog. Now we have a defenseman's course taught by none other than UVA head coach, Lars, Tiffany, and a goalie course taught by former two-time All-American and UVA assistant coach kept Turner. You can check out our Patrion page with the link that is listed in the description, as well as taking a look at the online store again, with the link listed in the description. We're excited to get back to our interview and you will find that interview in progress.

Speaker:

You know, you'd hear these rumors. And in fact, Dom Storja did a tweet a month or two ago saying he had spoken to, I can't remember how many coaches, 10 or 20 college coaches. And they all said all this incoming class from 2025 is asking the coaches. What can you do for me? And I know that was clearly not, you know, you weren't allowed to entice athletes with NIL to come to your school. So it sounded like some of this stuff was going on already. So we'll get into the, you know, the core case in a moment that really will change everything. But let's talk a little bit about the collectives. So now the collectives, They formed basically in response to NIL, correct me if I'm wrong, I think that's the case. And then just tell us how they formed, you know, what they were intended for, take it from there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so the collectives were formed to to be the payment mechanism for NIL payments for the student athletes. The collectives are formed in states where there's no legislation and and rules and guidelines on NIL, and there are other states where there are rules and and guidelines around NIL. The Commonwealth of Virginia is a state that has rules and guidelines. Many of the big football states, I'm going to lean toward the SEC and the Big Ten there, they have in many of those states, rules and guidelines around collectives. And so the collectives were formed. And then with very loose laws and, and legal infrastructure payments began rather immediately towards student athletes, especially in the revenue sports. And when we talk about revenue sports, we're talking about men's football, obviously, and then women's and men's basketball.

Speaker:

Yes, so like initially it would be like, okay, you want to run a camp, you can go ahead and do that. You want to get some sort of social media deal going, do some advertising for a business, all these sorts of things. And that essentially was the deal. And I, just doing a little research, it said, you know, what it's not for is recruiting endorsement. Can't compensate student athletes contingent on their enrollment and playing a sport. They said you could not do pay for play, which would be compensation contingent on athletic participation or performance. And then agreements provided without pre pro quo were wrong. So like payments for work not performed, like, you know, you couldn't just show up and, and get money. Although I had heard through the grapevine that that was being offered. So, so that was NIL and then the collectives, and now Ron, you ready for that? The next question?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, sure. So you know, let's jump to the the new court case that was recently settled in the House versus the NCA. And first off, kind of tell our listeners, why the case was filed and what the, you know, what the settlement was that was reached. And then as a follow up, how will it or how could it you know, the decision impact the N. C. A. And the schools involved and N. I. L. And I know again, Drew, we're throwing you one that's got a lot of question marks still involved, but we're hoping you can help help us and our, our listeners start to make some sense of it.

Speaker 2:

Brown lacrosse and Virginia lacrosse are still going to be really good. Let me use that as the headline. And a great place to send your sons or daughters.

Speaker:

Sigh of relief. That's good to hear.

Speaker 2:

House is a big deal. House settled on May 23rd 2. 8 billion. It's going to impact the Power Five. I'm going to tell you both, it's really Power Six going to Power Three. Power Five, just for folks to review. Obviously, we're talking about the bigger athletic conferences, the Big Ten, the Big Twelve, the Pac 12, the ACC, and the Southeastern Conference. I'm going to put the Ivy League in there. Because I think the Ivy League is in a really special position. I'm going to come back to that

Speaker 5:

house is

Speaker 2:

a 2. 8 billion settlement for a number of of, you know, sort of attached lawsuits and claims. Which many folks believe will completely change the college athletics landscape. The decision allows universities, this is the key point, to directly pay student athletes. The affected universities are essentially going to be paying between 20 and 22 million based on current projections as a percentage of revenue, 20 to 22 million a year, Directly to the student athletes and each each school can decide how to divide up the money among programs. Important and athlete. It's estimated that a majority of that money is going to go to the revenue sports. We talked about the 3 programs that are the primary beneficiaries there. We believe that college athletes can continue to argue for NIL. economic benefit of NIL. If I appear and I use my name, image, and likeness, I'm going to get additional monies that would be on top of this house settlement,

Speaker:

right? So it doesn't really change their ability to benefit from NIL. That's going to stay.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, exactly. And specific to, to house, you know, the big question is, how will this affect Title nine, because what title nine, the, the the landmark decision there was basically to allow equal opportunity to female student athletes. So, with the money piece of house. Will money be considered equal opportunity or is opportunity itself to play, to compete, to achieve enough to qualify under title nine? I think the betting line is title nine is going to be revisited and they're going to attach economic opportunity to just opportunity, personal opinion. So what's happening is the real issue is revenue and revenue is based on TV contracts, and the biggest TV contracts are in the Big Ten and the SEC. And you've seen those two conferences start to attract a lot of new athletic programs into those conferences and where you are today standing at a power five, my personal belief is you're going to get too much more of a power to with the Ivy League to the side of that outside of the power to plus one, which is what I'm calling that. You will have other conferences and other universities that have athletic programs that sell. Fund that can exist away from the revenue model, but the smaller schools are going to have a real issue with house and the settlement achieved if you're a mid major and you're having to pump dollars, but you're not getting the TV revenue to offset that. So a lot of questions before, you know, call it fall of 2025 when house kicks in when those, those money start flowing on how mid majors are treated. How the conferences realign, how the revenues are split across to, to women's athletics, the, just the roster count of, of athletic programs at different universities. Many, many questions.

Speaker:

Right. Yeah, I did see, you know, they were saying, well, and thanks for these answers, they're, they're great. You know, that, that the house versus NCAA, as you were saying, it's. You know, that 2. 8 billion payout is going to happen over 10 years, and it's going to athletes who played, I think, going back to 2016. And like reimbursing those people. And then going forward, it's like any of these athletes and I'm not, you know, it may be starting in that fall of 2025, they're going to decide, you know, they're going to pay 20 to 22 million to their current athletes. Right. So it's going, it's kind of back paying all these people who did not get paid when all that large revenue was coming to the schools from those TV contracts. And then, you know, it's like the NCAA is paying part of it. And then. Part of those big five conference schools are paying it. Are the mid majors having to pay any of that money back?

Speaker 2:

That is not clear. We don't think so. We, the general reading public, who's closely watching NIL and all of the legal pieces going through, but it's not clear.

Speaker:

Okay. And then as you're talking about just with the conference realignment, you know, you look at the PAC 12, it's like the PAC 2 right now. I think there's only, I think it's only Oregon State and maybe Washington State, literally, that are left in the PAC 12 right now. Got some schools going to the ACC, and Stanford, and maybe Cal, I think three, I forget who the other one is. And then, you know, as you may have mentioned, some of the PAC 12 is going to the Big Ten, and it is crazy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the realignment has really created, you know, A lot of questions and people are even getting beyond the power to plus 1 and getting to a model where there could be just a revenue conference where the biggest grossing athletic departments just create a conference of their own. And they just play each other. And that's that's literally it. So it doesn't matter if it's Texas and Oregon and, you know, Boston College and New Mexico State, they're going to all be in one conference. They're the biggest revenue you know, programs. And those are just examples. But there's lots of models that start. Popping up when you talk about the future of revenue sharing you know conference alignment,

Speaker 3:

right? Drew were, you know, this is just bringing up so many questions. I see you're doing the same. So is the is the house settlement that lays out this 20 to 22 million per school and then and then, you know, the answer to your question, it's unsure whether mid majors is that because Those numbers are simply based on a percentage of revenue and that those schools that are generated because you know, that's the big misnomer right in college sports that most programs don't make any money. And so is that really what it's based on that those that make the money have to share it?

Speaker 2:

Exactly right. So it'd be really tough to go to universities that don't have revenue and ask them to kick in a revenue share from out of, you know, university coffers. out of the endowment. So it's really for universities, the power five as the primary case, where there is revenue coming in from TV principally, and where there is a source of revenue to then be shared.

Speaker 3:

And so is that where you could see that those mid majors to stay competitive with whatever they believe their competitive landscape to be, They're still going to want that NIL money, right? Cause they're still going to want a competitive edge. And if that's still legal and they don't have the revenue to share from what they're making, that'll be another way that they can quote, get revenue to their athletes.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. You could have a really strong mid major program that has a great, well set up, well organized NIL collective, pay student athletes for name, image, and likeness, and have them at the same level or in the same zip code as the revenue sharing Power Fives. And you could still be, you could still be relevant and competitive. It remains to be seen. That hasn't been a, a thing as yet. Most, most of the NIL is occurring at the bigger schools. It's occurring because the boosters can now, you know, essentially legally organize and compensate the athletes for the NAL. But if a mid major gets organized, they can be competitive.

Speaker 3:

Jay, you mind if I keep going here? Because I, I, the other piece that I, You're

Speaker:

going to go whether I say go ahead or not, so go ahead. That's true,

Speaker 3:

Jay, because my questions are outstanding, and I can tell how engaged Drew is in them. But but I was being, I thought I was being courteous at DJ

Speaker:

for a chance to go right ahead. Big guy. So

Speaker 3:

true. I was in athletic fundraising at Brown, right? And so I think about those mid majors and part of what I've wondered about NIL from the start is, you know, there's only so much money from those boosters or donors. And so those, those are the same donors that a mid major is is counting on to put in the new stadium or the new locker room. Or, you know, to accentuate their, their schedule to enhance travel money. So I talk about the ambiguity. It's just hard to figure how all these different pots of money are going to get sliced off up to keep these different programs at different levels competitive.

Speaker 2:

You, you get to a point very quickly where It's not one or the other NIL or annual athletic fundraising. It's really got to be both. This world, this new world order of athletics is requiring those that care about their athletic You know, programs to continue allocating to annual monies that fund scholarships and travel and stadiums and the like, but also to remain competitive because those student athletes are saying, coach, what am I worth? What, what can I do to enhance my NAL? Are there any other opportunities? Those are meaningful recruit questions. And if you don't have a way to address that as well, it's not just going to be, well, we can give you a full scholarship. That's no longer enough to be competitive. Even at the smaller schools, you have to have a way for the student athletes to earn an economic you know, incentive if they qualified to do so.

Speaker:

Right. Well, and you did mention scholarships and that was one of the The agreements made in this settlement, right, was that they used to limit the number of scholarships naturally. I was surprised to see that baseball only gets like 11. 9 or something like that. You know, lacrosse has always gotten there at 12. 4 or 12. 6 over four years, whatever it may be. But they said there would not be a limit going forward on scholarships. So where do you think that will go for men's lacrosse going forward?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so that's a, that's a tremendous question. And, and has a big impact on the future. Imagine if you can get to a place where a program you cares about, you care about has, you know all the roster spots scholarship. That's a tremendous advantage because then you've got the chance to recruit you know, essentially a full ride program. Right. It's hard to think that with all the different spots at different programs in division one or or other divisions, you know, if you could get a full roster with full scholarships, all 40 or 50 or 60, some programs have 60 you know, lockers there,

Speaker 5:

right?

Speaker 2:

I think it will generally grow the size of the roster, and I think it will generally grow the size of the scholarship pool available to student athletes. The issue is, I don't believe it will be just a pure handout from the athletic department. I think it's going to be more about a fundraising enhancement to number of scholarships and size of scholarship pool, because You know, these Olympic sports are already a drag on the overall net revenue profitability of athletic programs, as we well know. And you know, it's going to be, I think, incumbent upon the different Olympic sport programs to raise their own monies to increase number of scholarships.

Speaker:

Yeah, because you can increase the number of scholarships, but that's decreasing income to the university. And they're already paying out because of the settlement, and you just wonder, you know, where the money is going to come from. Yeah, one thing that we had seen, Ron, I'm, you're getting me so off script here, but, Ron, where are we at here?

Speaker 3:

Was that your question? It was, Jay, but I'm happy to cede it to you. Go right

Speaker:

ahead. Let's stick with it. And I will,

Speaker 3:

and then I mean, Drew, I think the reason this is like this, every question leads to another question, right? So, I mean, I think this is really such a fascinating conversation. Jay, I want to come back to Drew's sense of the Ivy League because I'm really intrigued by his sense of the, how he, you know, how you think the Ivy League is going to be competitive.

When we think about big donors. Big endowments. We must think of the Ivy league. Who is some of the biggest in the land? To hear just how green the Ivy league is tune in next week and take it all in.

Ron:

until we meet again, here to, hoping you find the twine. We're signing off here at the Get the LAX coop. Thanks again so much. We will see you the next time.