S1 E36. National Champions Sean Kirwan, Mikey Herring, & Their Epic Big Green Adventure, Part I.

In this first installment our two part interview with Dartmouth head coach Sean Kirwan and his offensive coordinator Mikey Herring we start with their beginnings in the great game of lacrosse. Next, we hear of how their high school lacrosse experiences shaped and guided their goals of playing college lacrosse.. 

Coach Kirwan gives terrific insight into how his time playing and coaching for Tufts, under Mike Daly, would change the college lacrosse landscape forever. After two years coaching for the Jumbos and a Division III national title under his belt he was chosen by Lars Tiffany to run the Brown offense. One offensive output record after the next was set, year after year, as Kirwin mastered his craft and would eventually move onto UVA with Coach Tiffany. 

While with the Wahoos Mikey Herring and Coach Kerwan’s path’s cross. The two hit it off right away as Mikey’s father was a high school lacrosse coach (who ironically played lacrosse at Dartmouth) and imbued in his son a tremendous lacrosse I.Q. as well as a love and respect for the game. Under Coach Kerwan’s tutelage Mikey became one of the quarterback’s of Virginia’s incredible 2019 National Championship run. 

Mikey Herring was an assistant coach at VMI and UMBC making his own impressive mark as both of those offenses excelled under his guidance. 

This summer, the pair joined forces at Dartmouth and we are pleased to share their story with you! Buckle up, we’ve got action packed episodes of their epic adventures on tap for you!

And if you enjoy the show, please support the podcast by subscribing, leaving a review, and telling a friend about us so you can help our message grow!

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Transcript

Jay: 0:00

it's time for get the La Scoop, a podcast bringing you all the people and stuff you should know. In the game of lacrosse, we take LAX seriously, but ourselves, not so much. Join hosts, big Dog and Jaybird, and the biggest names in the game. Brought to you by Jay McMahon lacrosse. That's J M L Skills, mindset, and LAX IQ training. Ron Doish, the big dog, was a collegiate football and lacrosse player at Brown. He was also an assistant lacrosse coach and the executive director of the sports found. and Jay McMahon, the Jaybird, a three time All-American Midfielder Brown. He was a captain of the US Junior National team and is the founder of J M L. And joining us in the studio, Steve gfi, who's collegiate lacrosse career statistics equals one goal against Dartmouth.

0:51

Welcome to another episode of get the lack scoop. We got two great guests this evening who have played and coached at the highest levels of division one and division three lacrosse. And we're super excited to have them. Jay, you're going to get us started tonight. Absolutely. Our first guest is a native of New Jersey where he attended Mountain Lakes High School and is a graduate of Tufts University from 2012, where he broke the single season and career goal scoring records with 66 goals in 2011 and 150 career goals. During his time with the jumbos, he was named an All-American in 2011 and 2012. He was also an academic All-American and team captain in 2012 and enjoyed winning the NCA Division 3 National Championship with the school in 2010. He accepted a job as an assistant coach, perfecting his offensive approach at his alma mater, guiding Tufts offense to an NCA leading 423 goals in 2014. The most Did you say, did you say 423 goals in one season, Jack? Yes, I did a lot. It's a lot. And in fact, that was the most all time by any team in NCAA lacrosse history in all divisions at the time. But you'll see later that he broke that on his own record down the road here. Anyway, his tough squad also led the nation. In team goals and assists at 251, he coached three, 100 plus point scorers. The first time in NCAA history, that three players from one team scored over a hundred points in the same season. But that is unbelievable. He next playing defense here. Jack was playing defense or any defense against these teams. He was coaching probably great defense. They just couldn't stop he next spent two seasons at Brown running the offense under head coach Lars Tiffany with two Ivy League titles and a Final Four appearance to his credit. During the 2015 season, his first on the Bears staff, he helped Brown win 12 games, its highest total since 2009. And that set the stage for a program best 16 victories the following season. He helped change the lacrosse, the college lacrosse landscape in 2015 with a unique fast break offense that scored 237 goals, averaging 13. 9 goals per game, good for fifth in the nation. His offense was even more potent in 2016 with a nation leading 16. 3 goals per game. In 2017, he began a seven year stint as the offensive coordinator at Virginia, again with head coach Lars Tiffany. There he helped lead the Cavaliers to national championships in 2019 and 2021, along with three Final Four appearances and a pair of ACC titles. Under his guidance, the Virginia offense ranked among the top three nationally in goals per game in four different seasons. The 2023 Cavalier Attack, which is instrumental in the team's run to the national semifinal, finished as the country's top scoring offense with 17. 24 goals per game and set a new program record for total goals in a season at 293. He was named the 2021 IMLCA Assistant Coach of the Year after helping Virginia to consecutive national titles. He gained additional coaching experience at the professional level, spending multiple seasons implementing offensive schemes for the Boston Cannons and the Cannons Lacrosse Club. In 2021, his offense ranked as the second most efficient attack in Premier Lacrosse League history. In June of 2023, he accepted his first head coaching position at Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire. He's a native of Boonton Township, New Jersey. Please welcome our first guest, Coach Sean Kerwin. Welcome. Thank you Jay, Ron, thank you for having me, Jay. I got to bring you everywhere I go to intro me. That was incredible. Thank you for that. Hey, apparently it's all true. Coach Kerwin. Pretty incredible career, my friend. I just stack it up like that. Yeah. And you're just getting started. Exactly. Just getting started. All right, Ron, I'm going to introduce our next guest. I will, Jay. So our next guest, and I like this, Jay, we bring a little New England flavor. Massachusetts toughness on our next guest being from Dedham, Massachusetts, attended Avon Old Farms, where he's a four year letter winner in lacrosse and a three year starter. His team won three founders league titles and that is. A tough, tough league in lacrosse. So when three titles in a four year career, it's quite an accomplishment. It was a two time under armor. All star was named captain in his senior year where he led the team to the 2015 Western, new England championship. That year, he was also first team, all founders, Lee, all founders league at ATT& CK and was awarded the George A. Murray award as the most outstanding athlete at Avon Old Farms. And there's some damn good athletes at Avon, so that's a heck of an accomplishment. Super impressive. So not surprisingly being given that honor, our next guest also excelled in football and basketball at Avon. Pretty cool to know that lacrosse was literally in his blood as his father Michael played lacrosse at Dartmouth, and his paternal grandmother hails from the Onondaga tribe in Syracuse, New York. So lacrosse was literally, he was meant to play this game. He went on to enjoy a stellar playing career. With the Cavaliers at UVA, the last three seasons, with our first guest coach Kerwin as his offensive coordinator. He finished his career with 80 points, including 34 goals and 46 assists. As a senior in 2019, he tallied the game winning goal in OT over Syracuse in the Dome. Now, as a lacrosse player, If you're going to draw it up and you're running around in the backyard, you're scoring the game winner and I'll tell you in the dome against Syracuse. I mean, that is something you'll never, ever forget. From Michael Krause. I remember pretty sweet two man game. They double them, swung it over. Boom. That was nice. And, uh, you know, in pretty heady company here when you're setting a single game UVA, uh, record for an NCAA playoff game with Doug Knight scoring six goals in a first round game against, uh, Robert Morris. Right. And I should note, I think Connor Schellenberger tied it, too. Just to be accurate, but Shelley gets Shelley's got enough accolades. Let's hear it enough. This is Mikey's thing. Um, he was a key member of the 2019 Cavalier squad that won the national championship, their first title since 2011, huge year for UVA. He was awarded the, class of 86 unsung hero award, for the 2018 season, after graduating from UVA was drafted 34th overall in the MLL supplemental draft,, and played professionally for the Boston cannons in 2019, he was also selected 75th overall by the Georgia swarm, in the NLL draft. And following graduation from UVA, he also went into coaching where he was the offensive coordinator at the Virginia Military Institute. We know it mostly as VMI, where he was there for three years and also served as their recruiting coordinator during the 21 22 school year. In the 22 season, VMI improved its scoring average and scored its most goals in a season in 22 years. In addition, he served as an assistant, in the 2022 U-S-I-L-A North south senior all-star game. He most recently served as an assistant coach and offensive coordinator for the muckers UMBC in, uh, 2223 down in Maryland, God's country. Mikey. Uh, we'll hear plenty about Long Island from Jay. I know you grew up in new England, but we all know Maryland is the Mecca. Um, so it was nice that you've spent a little time down there in Maryland. With the retrievers. Interesting. That never seems to prove itself true, but we'll, we'll argue that point. Enough out of you. Let's go. So, the retrievers began that 22, 23 campaign for no scoring 49 goals in those first four games. Finished the season with 11. 85 goals per game. Average their best scoring average since the 14 season. UMBC ended the year with an eight and five record. He was named assistant coach and offensive coordinator. By his former offensive coordinator at Dartmouth in July of 2023. And this fall began his first campaign on the sideline for the big green up in Hanover. Please give a very warm, get the lax scoop podcast. Welcome to Mikey Herring. Mikey. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Thank you guys. Really excited to be here. Really, uh, really fired up. So thank you for having me. Hey, all right, fellas, let's jump into it. Ron, would you, would you, would you offer the first question? We got a lot to cover. Jay, I knew I was offering the first question right into it, prompted by you look to be hesitating, Ron, coach Kerwin, get to work, please. Coach Kerwin, if you've listened to any of these podcasts, you know that we always love to know, you know, where it all started. And,, and I, you know, I've known you for a long time, but I don't actually know when, when did you first get introduced to the game? What are your earliest memories of lacrosse? And were there any people in those early years that you really influenced you in the game? Yeah, it's,, it's an easy answer. It started with my dad. My dad played collegiately at Hobart. you know, he grew up playing the game. He grew up in New Jersey, and was lucky enough to be, in a town that was one of the few high schools that had lacrosse, back then. So he was playing throughout high school, and then got an opportunity to show up and play at Hobart. He won a national championship., while he was there, kind of right before their, their true, true heyday, but kind of right at the beginning of it all, the, the sports been in my life for every memory that I have. So it's, you know, as early as, you know, a toddler just, you know, there's pictures of me with a lacrosse stick just bombing around the front yard. Um, and so, you know, some of my most fond memories, I'll be honest are, um, You know, being around my older brother, uh, and playing with him, I was always the younger brother that was tagging along, uh, trying to, you know, hoping that they would have games that they would blow out their opponents so I could sneak in, you know, as a, you know, when they were in fourth and fifth grade and I was a first and second grader just trying to, to go and play with the big guys and, uh, and it was just, those are some of my fondest memories because they were so great to me. And trying to set me up for success, you know, instead of finding me as the annoying little brother, it was always, you know, a highlight for me,, one that I'll forever cherish. And I give a, you know, just a ton of thanks to my brother, my dad, and all of his teammates too, cause those are really, those still remain such vivid memories for me of, you know, scoring goals as a first grader against fifth graders, uh, was great. Jersey strong. Love it. All right Mikey, as your grandmother on your father's side hails from the Onondaga tribe up in Syracuse as we just mentioned, I'd imagine the La Crosse roots really run deep in your family as well. And um, tell us what some of your first experiences were like growing up. Yes, we're very similar to coach Kerwin, you know, my dad really introduced me, you know, to the game of lacrosse and very similar also to coach where I got pictures of me as a, you know, three year old lacrosse stick in my hands bombing around the front yard. And, it was kind of cool. My dad's a longtime, high school lacrosse coach. And so a lot of my first nights are You know, being at his practice, being around, you know, guys that he coached. And so that's where, you know, where I really fell in love with obviously lacrosse, but he was also a basketball coach as well. So where I fell in love with, you know, sports. And so those are some of my first memories just being around, you know, his practices and,, really falling in love with, you know, not only sports, but lacrosse specifically. So. That's great. You know, I do remember you being a very smart tactical player. So that measures up there. That all adds up. And then what about your dad's origins? You know much about his first start, playing the game? Yeah. So he grew up, in Bollinsville, New York, a small town right outside of Syracuse. And he actually did. Are playing,, until middle school, I think seventh grade, and he started playing because his best friend at the time, was a very good lacrosse player. He actually grew up, you know, kind of strictly playing basketball and football. But he kind of fell in love with it as well at that, like seventh, eighth grade and continue to play at CBA New York, where he went to high school and then obviously ended up going to Dartmouth as well. But I think a really started for him that like middle school area, because one of his best friends at the time. Play. That's great. Yeah, I know that program has been getting better and better. Baldwinsville, they've been in the state finals a few times as of late. All right, Ron. Well, Sean, we heard,, about how Mike was, you know, a three sports star at Avon, did you play other sports growing up? And then, you know, when, what was that age for you where, you know, if you were playing other sports where you really kind of said lacrosse is my thing. Yeah. So, so I grew up, I actually loved basketball growing up. And then quickly stopped growing. So I had to start to pivot my goals, in what I wanted to do athletically, but, you know, played football and lacrosse, in middle school, and in high school, gave up basketball after my freshman year, high school, to really have that winter season to help prepare for lacrosse. But where I grew up, you know, mountain lakes. High school mountain lakes lacrosse, the best way that I can describe it to people that don't know it's very, you know, it reminds me of texas high school football. I mean, it's a very small town that just lives and breathes the sport of lacrosse and it starts and ends with the head coach there. Tim Flynn, who's the only head coach in mountain lakes lacrosse history. He's been there since 1980. He actually grew up with my dad. So he's like family to me. And so, I've known him my whole life and, and to, you know, talking about vivid memories, you know, I didn't really have a college team that I grew up, you know, rooting for, cause all I knew was mountain lakes cross. And so,, for me, it was very easy to focus on that sport because that's what our town surrounded itself with. The passion that you would, and the support you would see at games, was unlike anything that you really see in the high school level to see, you know, it was, I laugh, you know, cause I was one of those kids to see second, third and fourth graders line up, not for the mountain lakes team about take the field, but for the opponent's team about take the field and heckle and throw rocks and stones, you know, and just create that, that environment, um, is, is really near and dear to my heart. So, you know, yeah, I played football. I actually, you know, played for another Jersey high school coaching legend in Doug Wilkins. and so between the two of them, I'm incredibly lucky, but it was always lacrosse. that's cause that's what you do at Mountain Lakes. That's the sport you play when you, you live there, which is, you know, really fortunate to be a part of that culture and that type of program. That's what I'm wondering. You know, I know you, you spent a lot of time obviously with Lars and, and, you know, we know him and Dom before him. Those are guys who love to recruit those multi sport athletes. Right. And I'm wondering what's your, you know, we'll get more into the recruiting stuff later, but I'm just wondering, as we talk about the multiple sports, both of you guys have played, how does that inform your philosophy from a recruiting perspective? Yeah, you know this sport and one of the reasons why it's such a special sport as you all know is that like it takes bits and pieces of takes the best things from every other sport. It feels like right. It's like the ultimate combination. So whenever you hear about someone that's playing multiple sports, you know that. It's going to translate to the lacrosse field some way and somehow, so it's only going to help, right? And if, if anything, it's going to help even more than someone that just focuses on lacrosse. Cause there's so many ways to be creative in this, in this sport. Uh, and truly the way to do that is to steal from other sports. And, you know, uh, we're, I'm constantly looking at, you know, football and basketball schemes, you know, just to try to sharpen what we're doing from an X and O standpoint too. But yeah. From a recruiting standpoint, you know, the way you're able to, you know, build a skill set or take from all these other sports is, I think it's what makes our sport unique. Right. Hey, Ron, you're going to ask Mikey about Have On All Farms or what? Is it a special invitation? Yeah, it's feeling a little spicy tonight. Fellas. Yeah, I'll ask. I'm happy to ask Mikey a question. Follow along, Ron. It's right there. So I'll lay it out for you. Oh, Jesus. Guys, this is what you get when you got an all of that. I mean, just do your job for God's sake. Just do their job. I thought I just asked a nice follow up there. That was great. It was wonderful. All right, Mikey, Mikey, apparently this question's for you. Uh, you know, we're talking about how you attended Avon Old Farms, you know, a school with a rich athletic tradition, rich tradition, period, a rich athletic tradition, and also a great lacrosse tradition. What can you tell us, you know, about your, high school lacrosse experience and who are the folks at Avon that really made a big difference in your trajectory? Yeah, I think it was a really special one, you know, cause again, it is a place that cares about, you know, not only the academics, but also the sports side of things as well. And lacrosse has been one of those sports at Avon that's had a lot of success and had a lot of really good teams and players, you know, come through there before I even got there. And so it was really, What attracted me to Avon was the fact that they cared about lacrosse and lacrosse was a big deal there. And so, we were very fortunate during my time to, to do a lot of winning. But again, I think, there's some mentors throughout my time,, where Dr. Flanagan was our head coach. He is, I don't know if you guys know him at all, but he is a tremendous human being and was my advisor there as well. And, you know, really mentored me and made me become a better person. The biggest thing I took away from that really taught me how to treat people and that, you know, there are other things outside of the game of lacrosse. And so I, really, uh, selfless. Coach and leader,, someone I'm very thankful for. And then,, the offensive coordinator at the time was Keith Lee, a very special relationship with him, obviously working with him on the offensive side of the ball. And then Trevor Stern was the defensive coordinator as well at the time, and also my English teacher. So got to know him and build a relationship with him. So those are really kind of the three major, coaches during my four years at Avon that, that played a really big role in my development for sure. Nice. Nice. And then as a follow up, Mikey, you were recruited kind of back in that era when it was like early recruiting, you know, quote unquote, and, you know, if you could just tell our audience in general, what it was like back then, and then in particular what it was like to be recruited by, coach Starsha and coach Evan Hartsdale. Yeah. So it was kind of crazy, you know, at the time I was 14 or 15 years old and, you know, talking to coaches and trying to. And, you know, at the time I thought I kind of knew what I was doing and looking back now, you know, I'm pretty happy, you know, right. That, you know, you're like in ninth grade basically. Yeah, right. Ninth grade. Eighth, ninth. Yeah, it was definitely a different time. With recruiting, but I can't tell you how thankful I am to, to coach Sarja and coach Van Arsel for, for putting me in this opportunity to have attended, you know, such a great school and live out, uh, one of my dreams of being a division one lacrosse player. And so I can't tell you how grateful I am. And obviously, you know, UVA is such a rich history. And so it was very flattering. And again, can't tell you how thankful I am to, to those two, for sure, for putting me in a position like that, to attend such a great school and such a great lacrosse, tradition. That's awesome. Now, I know back when Dom recruited us, he just was like a volume kind of guy, you know, like sent so many touches, like, you know, sending all sorts of mail calls here or there. I mean, I could imagine with cell phones, you probably were getting hit up with Texas and 8th grade at like the cafeteria. I mean, was was he a volume guy back then to even with young people? Yeah, so it was funny. He actually kept it, you know, relatively, I guess, old school, right? And, uh, mm-Hmm. was sending letters. My mailbox was always full at Ava from, uh, from letters from from Coach Starge, just with updates about what was going on in the program or, uh, what was going on at UVA. And it really made me feel a part of the program even before I got there. So, again, something I'm, uh, very grateful, you know, for, again, something I was looking for in my recruiting process was just, uh, I'm kind of a homebody, so I was looking for a place. Mm-hmm, I felt. At home and again, I had so much credit to coach Sarja for for making me feel like that even long before I stepped foot on campus. So That's great. So Sean, how about you? You know, you come from this, as you said, this rabid lacrosse community of mountain lakes. And, how do you end up at Tufts? And, you know, I think now when you think Tufts lacrosse, you think about that high octane offense that you brought as a player and coach Daly and that you've been a part of sustaining and, you know, and extending beyond Tufts. But what was Tufts like then? And what was your recruiting process like that led you to Tufts? Yeah, so my recruiting process very different than, than Mikey's in fact that mine was very, very late. You know, even then the top end players were still committing in their, you know, the earliest was like their sophomore year. So it was, you know, still a little bit later, back then, Tufts, the way I found it, honestly, it was through my oldest brother's, SWAM at Williams College. So that's what introduced me to the NESCAC in general, that league. You know, and then I watched my brother go through his recruiting process,, playing lacrosse. He ended up going to Cornell, but he was very heavily recruited by Williams College. So again, you know, had that NESCAC experience, was introduced to it. And I'll have to give her a ton of credit. My mom was very, for whatever reason, just was constantly saying, Hey, you should look at Tufts. You should look at Tufts. And, you know, and so,, she definitely had a say in that. She'd be thrilled to hear that I'm giving her credit on this podcast. but yeah, I mean, Yeah, but Tufts wasn't what it is now., it was on the precipice though. They had just really started to really commit to that style, but that was not something that I, really knew about,, before I got there. You know, and so for me, it was, you know, trying to find, you know, a high academic institution that I could go and compete and win. You know, coming from a program like Mountain Lakes and who I am as a person, incredibly competitive. And so, you know, going to a place, you know, I didn't want to go to a place that was going to go, you know, two and 12 and, and so turned down not many, but a couple division one opportunities of those lower end D ones to go to a place like a Tufts. You know, what happened from there. Was never something that I thought was going to happen. It was a tech man's dream. Yeah. And, you know, I was just incredibly fortunate, but I mean, I went on three official visits my senior year before I made that decision, you know, and so it was a slower process and, you know, it was just, you know, really landed at the right place, a place that allowed me to be creative as a player. And then not only that, but then be. Continue to be creative as a coach. And so a ton of credit to coach daily and, and coach Flynn, my high school coach for really advocating for me and helping me through the whole process and landing where I did. Hey, Sean, I'm wondering what's it like to play for a young coach daily, you know, who's just, I mean, he, you know, he's got a, obviously a really interesting story of not having been a lacrosse player and yet becomes an innovator in the game really. And so what were those years like as a player? They were tremendous. And again, I think, you know, he had been there a while by the time I got there, so he had really settled into who he was and how he wanted his teams to play, how he wanted the culture to look and, you know, it was. Easy in a lot of ways, because talk about a man that just empowers his players and just allows them to play to their strengths. And really doesn't put any governors on his, and they hold anybody back. And so for someone like me that was itching with creativity and, you know, play in a certain way, it was music to my ears to allow me to play the way I wanted. And, you know, I think what, I found myself, and the teammates that I was around, a lot of us came from. High caliber programs in high school. So there was this drive to win,, cause that's what we were used to. And so we knew kind of what it would take just from that. And so for us to kind of catch that momentum as players and coach Shelly did a tremendous job of just continuing to just pump us with confidence and, we really didn't know any better. and went on an incredible run because we just, you know, we knew we were great and that's all that mattered. And so, and that's such a credit to coach Daly and the way he operates and the way he runs a program is really does empower his players to be confident and successful.

Jay: 26:12

How about if we transition to. J m l and let's do that. We'll get into a little bit of the mindset. We'll do a mindset minute here.

26:22

As coach Kerwin just said, his teams at Tufts knew they were great. And he said their coach at Tufts university at the time. Current men's lacrosse coach at brown university. Mike Daley empowered his players to feel confident and successful. Great stuff, but how to players and coaches make that their reality? Dr. Gilbert would say confidence comes in the doing of the task, doing that task over and over again with many reps. So we build muscle memory. So when the time comes to perform. There's not only no doubt. There's no thought needed our body. And our mind has been programmed by those reps to simply perform. A great quote. We love to use as we train our players, but the Jane McMahon on the cross app is good players practice until they get a right champions practice until they can't get it wrong. And the link for the free Jim McMahon lacrosse app is available on the apple app store and the Google play store. And we will put that in our show notes. Now, just as important as those reps. R for a player is the knowledge that they are supported by their coach. If a player does not feel that what they are attempting on the field is 100% encouraged and supported by their coach. Then they're going to be much less likely to get into the flow and execute at a high level. Simply put, if they have any doubt or uncertainty in their mind, or if they're busy worrying about negative feedback from the coaching staff. They're not going to be able to perform at the highest level. On the other hand, when you know, your coach has got your back and that he is one of your biggest cheerleaders. You can focus on the task at hand and just let it flow. That wraps up our mindset minute and we'll return to our interview in progress So when, when do you decide to go into coaching, Sean? I mean, that, was that like a, was that like a natural thing or, you know, I mean, you knew what was in the pipeline there too, at Tufts, right? Did that, did that influence you? Like, how did that all happen? Yeah, so, I knew I wanted to coach from fourth grade on., now, I say that in the fact that, like I said earlier,, all I knew was high school lacrosse. Like, I didn't, I didn't have a college team that I was rooting for. So, growing up and even going through college was always in, like, had the goal of, alright, I'm gonna graduate, I'm gonna go teach, and then coach in high school. I wanted to teach, you know, middle school history, early high school history, and coach high school lacrosse. And that's what was my goal throughout high school and through college and to a point where, you know, Coach Daly knew that. And so he offered me an opportunity to get my master's in education, as a graduate assistant. and so, you know, I just, again, was deciding like, Hey, I'm going to go do this. I'll coach in college for two years, get my master's and then go do what I've been playing. And then very quickly fell in love with the idea of college coaching, doing that whole time. And, you know, and so. I immediately fell in love with it. So it had very little. Yes, you're right. That, that cupboard was far from bare. And if anything, well, way better than the dinner that was on the plate at the time, right? What was coming down the line there, was tremendous, but that had zero impact. It's just always what I wanted to do. Um, you know, growing up, it's just a matter of where I landed at the level I did. That was a little bit of a surprise. That's great. Good stuff. Now, make a fair warning here. I've got a long prelim to the next question, but but stay with me here. Now, you had quite the roller coaster ride, so to speak, you know, of a college experience. So I thought we'd review that. You know, you get to UVA as a freshman. You've got. Your coach is Dom Starger, Mark Van Ornsdale, and what would be their final season with the Hoos. And then the following year in comes coaches Tiffany and Kerwin and, and Kip Turner. And then the wins and losses wise, that following year isn't much different than the first year. And, um, and you didn't make the playoffs in either of those two years, but then in your junior year, you guys start getting some traction. You win an ACC game, you make the tournament, um, but you're losing the first round. And then your senior year of 2019, first game out of the gate, you're playing Loyola, and you end up losing 17 to 9, and it wasn't that close, and then... You managed to bet a team was unbelievable, though, because you bounce back and you have 81 goal games. I think you won seven of those games and three or four of them went to OT. Then you win the ACC tournament. You had only won one ACC game in three years of your career at that point. Then you win the national championship. I mean, you know, it's just unbelievable. You couldn't make it up. So the question is what was that like? And as time goes by, does that become like a more believable? Or as time goes by, it is, do you just marvel at how incredible that a four year career that was, it ended with an amazing national championship win and then a team that had all those one goal games, the national championship, you were killing Yale, who was the defending champs. I mean, you're up like 11 to four at one point. So, um, you know, the game ended at 13, nine, but it was like 13, eight with like 30 seconds left. So just are you going to, are you going to let Mikey talk about this. I can't stop. Are you going to. Let him actually answer run zip it. So just let us let us in on this Mikey. What was that like? The cardiac calves. Yeah, right. Um, you know, I think I have this cool, you know, two perspectives now that one is a player and living it and one as a coach now kind of a little bit more removed than, you know, as a player, it was really special. You know, again, we were doing some, some really. You know, cool things that we were in some pretty sticky situations, right? And I think it speaks to, you know, not only that team, but also the coaching staff obviously had, you know, some of the best coaches,, in the country. And that team kind of had this irrational. Confidence, especially on the offensive end that, you know, as long as the game wasn't over, we still had a shot. And there are a lot of times where we probably shouldn't have, honestly. Right. I mean, a lot of times you're down by six or seven goals and it's like getting near the fourth quarter. It was like, Oh my God, what are they doing? And then you guys would pull it out. Yeah. Right. And I think it speaks to, to that team because it never truly felt like that, um, as a player, that was really something special to, to be a part of. And, um, you know, don't know if I'm ever going to have that, you know, again, that was a really crazy thing. And now, um, you know, looking back on it as a coach, um, that's when it starts to become a little bit more improbable what happened. You know, right? Like some of those situations from a, you know, now being year five of coaching, like those were some tough situations. Pretty unusual too, right? You're probably not seeing that your typical season. Yeah. I think, uh, you know, it's two, two pretty unique situations and two pretty cool perspectives. You know, one is a player and it was like, you know, It just kind of became what we did, you know, it was really, uh, it was really cool from that lens and having, you know, the entire team have almost an irrational confidence. But now as a coach, it's almost like, you know, that, it was, it was really special and almost improbable. Um, you know, what happened that year, especially with all the, the one goal games and some of the, you know, the, the late, uh, kind of holes we were in, in some of those games. Right. I remember, I think it was Ryan Conrad being quoted as like, yeah, I mean, we could be down by five or six goals. We just all look at each other and we just know what's going to happen. You guys would just pull it out. Hey Mikey, I'm thinking about, you know, it was kind of a weird time for those of us who played for Dom at Brown and were teammates, Jay and I are teammates of Lars. And you're living that from a player perspective, right? And you were talking about how much, you know, you still, you know, are so grateful to Dom and to coach Van Arsdale for giving you that opportunity. And then you got to go through that transition. To Lars. What was that like, you know, just from an emotional perspective of, you know, two people that I'm sure you still really respect greatly, but having to manage through that as a player. Yeah, absolutely. It was really, kind of a unique situation again, you know, can't tell you how grateful I am to coach Sargent. For, you know, putting me in a position to, you know, to live out my dream and play at a place, like UVA. But, you know, also incredibly grateful to coach Tiffany, you know, as well, and what he was able to foster there, especially from a cultural perspective, you know, those last couple of years, there was really special. And I think, you know, something, That was a little bit needed at the time as well. And so,, again, it was definitely, you know, unique, situation, for sure. But, you know, I think that helped kind of mold and make it even more special having, having both of those, especially for our senior class in 2019 and made it even more special, to kind of go out on top as well. Yeah, it's incredible. Now, coach crew and I got a long one for you here. So, so hang, hang with me here. Now, one of the things that's been so impressive with the offenses that you coached at Brown and Virginia is this resilience that the teams have shown. And another great example is that 2021 championship season where you had some ups and downs. And I know early you guys lost to Syracuse by like 10 goals. It was like 20 to 10. And they were saying how that was the biggest margin of victory ever in the history of that rivalry. And you actually had lost to Syracuse twice, which I know you know, but I just want to kind of build it up here. And Syracuse wasn't all that good that year. They lost in the first round by like 12 goals. And then you go and then UNC comes to town and they were very good in 2021. And they were. It was not close. It was like 10 to 4 at halftime, maybe down 6 or 7 into the 4th quarter. At the end, though, you guys did play really well and it was 16 13. But I was fortunate enough to be at your guys ring ceremony after the 21 season, and I think it was John Fox saying that, like, we were wondering if we could even compete that year. in the ACC. And then you guys go down and I went to this game at UNC when you played them again and won 18 to 16. That was one of the best games ever. But you guys had so much confidence. It was incredible. And then you never look back after that. It was just total confidence the rest of the season. And then you got to play the Tar Heels again, who are the number one seed in the tournament in the semifinal, in the final four. You win that game. By a goal, and then you go and beat a very formidable, undefeated University of Maryland team in the championship. And that team had just destroyed a very good Duke team in the semifinal. So the question is, you know, how do you guys do that? To keep the belief in yourselves, in the players, despite being down, despite losses during the season. Like, how do you help these guys keep believing in their ability to basically go out and beat any team in the country?

Ron: 37:10

to hear the answer to that intriguing question, please tune in next week, as we continue with our series until we meet again, here to, hoping you find the twine. We're signing off here at the Get the LAX coop. Thanks again so much. We will see you the next time.